Will the Fridrich method ever be beaten?

No, If cubing gets any more popular and people get more interested in speed. Fridrich will not be the fastest method.
The way to cut down times becomes executing and thinking faster. To execute faster, you reduce number of moves while keeping fingertricks. To think faster, you need to see more at every look.
We want an efficient, intuitive, and fingertrick friendly solution with minimal looks. Frdrich does not provide that unless we get very involved in multislotting. I think the Cross in general is a waste of moves. As people get better at look ahead and block building, Fridrich would become simply an intermediate method compared to Petrus with ZBLL or MGLS, Multi slotting with ZB, Roux with 1 look for last 6 edges, ZZ-B...
 
Why can't Petrus be fast?

Roux with 1 look for last 6 edges

As if anyone's ever going to learn that. There's already, what 200-300 algs for five edges with DB solved?


I don't consider ZZ to be efficient. Even less than Fridrich.

mgls is like an alternative to Fridrich
No kidding.

but has exactly the same avger number of moves.

EXACTLY the same? It's not even THAT close anyway.

Fridrich: Cross + Slot 1 + Slot 2 + Slot 3 + Slot 4 + OLL + PLL
MGLS: Cross + Slot 1 + Slot 2 + Slot 3 + ELS + CLS + PLL

Therefore, they have the same number of step,
Big deal. Why doesn't everyone do a naive approach to corners first?: FL corners, LL corners, FL edges, LL edges, M-ring edges. There are only five steps ZOMG!

and for the skeptics out there
Who?

yes, the combined avg move-count for ELS + CLS + PLL equals Slot 4 + OLL + PLL. How? Because:
ELS + CLS + PLL = 6.5 + 9.5 + 12 = 28 moves avg
Slot 4 + OLL + PLL = 7.0 + 9.0 + 12 = 28 moves avg

Who does OPTIMAL CLS algs?

also, i would think that the recognition of mgls cases are harder
You would think? Besides, what's so bad about the recognition anyway.
and there are more ELS + CLS cases than OLL + PLL.
CLL/ELL?

so there really is no point in learning it unless you just want to be different from the mainstream "fridrich clones"
lol
as lucas garron (this method's developer)
As if no one knew that.
 
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I doubt that Fridrich or any of its variants (F2L, 2 alg LL) will be replaced by any other method as the preferred speedcubing system, for several reasons.

First, it works. The results at all the major events speak for themselves.

Second, there is plenty of accessible information available on the net, and plenty of support and encouragement from the very best cubists who use the method.

Third, the method is an extension of the layer by layer approach that most beginners would gravitate towards.

All of the above tends to extinguish any new would be speedcuber from looking elsewhere for methods. Fridrich is by default the "orthodox" method. How orthodox is it? I'd like to see how many users of the method start with their cross on the white face.

In contrast to this, consider another viable method (and its variants), corners first.

Only a handful of speedcubing events won with this method.

Access to information on the net beyond the algs (finger tricks, etc.) is insignificant in comparison to F2L methods.

Support and promotion from the very best corners first guys is very poor. I was at the 2003 event in Toronto, and met David Allen and Gene Means, who were fast. Very fast. As in sub 15 fast. Obviously, they didn't place, but they did very well during all the casual solves in the hotel lobby. I asked David for advice and tips, but didn't get much help, other than a few vague suggestions, and a few rude comments on how poorly the other cubists were holding their cubes and executing moves. After the competition, its like those guys dropped off the face of the earth. No published method, tips, tricks, nothing. The other guy who was a real booster of corners first also dropped off the face of the earth. He had started a web page which eventually vanished without ever having much substance on it. I don't know if he ever demonstrated his skills publicly to the cubing community anyway.

Finally, after many years, Waterman's method is readily available. With a few tweaks, this could be a world class system. In order for this to happen, there would have to be many cubists using it or some other corners first system to have any serious impact on the competitive stage. If David Allen and Gene Means had a larger contingent of cubists of similar ability at 2003, I think there would have been a good chance that at least one of them would have placed, and possibly won.

Given the mildly antisocial/reclusive nature of the world's best corners first cubists, how in the world is the system going to get any serious traction? If corners first is relegated to relative obscurity, what chance would any other system have at overtaking F2L?
 
Some corrections.

ELS + CLS + PLL = 6.5 + 9.5 + 12 = 28 moves avg
Slot 4 + OLL + PLL = 7.0 + 9.0 + 12 = 28 moves avg
ELS is 5.7-ish optimal, even if it takes a bit of work. Then there's edge control to consider, and especially AUF, which is mandatory for CLS.
OLL's AUF is probably not included in movecount, but many fast solvers AUF instead of rotations.
And most importantly, CLS is much better with longer 2-gen algs.
The difference between the optimal methods is irrelevant with several dozen other practical factors considered, and I don't care why people talk about it so much as if it mattered.

so there really is no point in learning it unless you just want to be different from the mainstream
That is the exact reason you'd want to learn it. Because that's what it is, yet compatible enough with Fridrich, and still viable for fast speedsolving.


I'm not sure why I even participate in these discussions anymore. :rolleyes:
 
Cubing is in the Dark Ages. In 20 Years Fridrich might be a quaint footnote.
 
"Rabid" is right.. nothing other than fridrich has been explored to the limits. everything is up in the air. this is probably so many people use fridrich: it was popular before and its full potential has been shown, and it just snowballed from tghere.

So lets get this straight. for serious speedcubers, there needs to be an EXPERT method, or perhaps several methods, that go beyond the classic ADVANCED like Fridrich and Petrus.

ZB has already been made, but it is not practical for many people because:
1.) ZBLL cases are hard to recognize
2.) There are wayyyy to many cases (ZBF2L + ZBLL = 800 algs), even for a serious cuber

Then there are various other methods, that are used by few people, and the ultimate potential is unknown.
Examples: ZZ (i'm not fully sure how this works either lol), waterman, etc.

Note: there are always additional techniques like multislotting, extra OLL cases where everything is already Permuted, etc.

I think that the future of cubing lies with finding SOME SORT OF perfect combination of current methods, and creating a hybrid method/s that has:
1.) a practical number of algs to memorize
2.) cases that are not too hard to recognize

and dont forget, wayy too many people have already learned fridrich, so it would be best if the hybrid would be an extension of fridrich
OR someone would have to discover a revolutionary new method that just blows away everything else
 
Cubing is in the Dark Ages. In 20 Years Fridrich might be a quaint footnote.

Maybe, but maybe not. Fridrich has some good things going for it:

1. The first step (cross) is easily and consistently figured out during preinspection, while solving some of the most difficult-to-see pieces
2. The second step (F2L) has the least easily recognizable cases and hardest-to-find pieces of the whole method, but you have four then three then two options as to which part of the cube to solve next. It has excellent lookahead.
3. The last steps (OLL+PLL) have easy recognition and fast, easy to memorize, and easily optimizable algorithms.

Most of the other popular algorithms for speedcubing have those advantages too, to a greater or lesser extent (Roux and Petrus, for example). Some don't (corners first).

ZZ, I think, has a lot of potential, as it has several clear advantages over Fridrich, such as taking more advantage of inspection time, a 1LLL, and blockbuilding to reduce move count. The method hasn't been fully developed, however, and until phasing and EOLine are both well-defined and documented I don't think we'll see any WR contender times with it.
 
Cubing is in the Dark Ages. In 20 Years Fridrich might be a quaint footnote.

No, the 1990s were the Dark Ages. See any new methods or techniques which came from that time? Do you know many speedcubers who started then? Exactly.

And I don't think Fridrich will ever be "a quaint footnote". I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it IS very fast compared to how easy it is to learn. People have gotten sub-20 with it in just two or three months, and it requires very little intuition and under 100 algorithms. Unlike with Petrus and Roux, you don't have to be good at blockbuilding to get sub-20 with Fridrich. Fridrich has a huge support structure which has been around basically since 1997. It is also an extension of the LBL method, which is probably one of the easiest ways to start cubing. I can see Fridrich being beaten (especially among top speedcubers) by a faster, easier, and/or more efficient method, but I don't think it will ever become unpopular. It is simply too easy and too fast to go completely out of style.

By the way: Want to get really fast with a cool intuitive method that isn't related to Fridrich, but still has good fingertricks? I think Roux has the highest potential of any currently common, non-Fridrich-based method.
 
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Cubing is in the Dark Ages. In 20 Years Fridrich might be a quaint footnote.

No, the 1990s were the Dark Ages. See any new methods or techniques which came from that time? Do you know many speedcubers who started then? Exactly.

And I don't think Fridrich will ever be "a quaint footnote". I'm sorry if you don't like it, but it IS very fast compared to how easy it is to learn. People have gotten sub-20 with it in just two or three months, and it requires very little intuition and under 100 algorithms. Unlike with Petrus and Roux, you don't have to be good at blockbuilding to get sub-20 with Fridrich. Fridrich has a huge support structure which has been around basically since 1997. It is also an extension of the LBL method, which is probably one of the easiest ways to start cubing. I can see Fridrich being beaten (especially among top speedcubers) by a faster, easier, and/or more efficient method, but I don't think it will ever become unpopular. It is simply too easy and too fast to go completely out of style.

By the way: Want to get really fast with a cool intuitive method that isn't related to Fridrich, but still has good fingertricks? I think Roux has the highest potential of any currently common, non-Fridrich-based method.

Exactly. Perfect explanation.
I tried to explain something similar on another forum but ended up getting attacked for calling Fridrich a "beginner method." What I meant was simply that it builds a block of only 2 pieces at a time rather than trying to see many possibilities for the blocks at a time in Petrus or Roux. I can see it beaten by the top speedcubers who might learn to track more pieces at once and use a blockbuilding approach to save moves.
 
I don’t dislike Fridrich. I in fact find it difficult to summon a strong emotional response towards any algorithmic method. I’m suggesting it may one day take a back seat (or other dead metaphor) to faster methods.

The King’s Gambit was a top Grand Master opening for hundreds of years. It’s rarely played in serious tournaments anymore.

I still open with the King’s Gambit now and then even though I know full well it’s almost completely busted. My results are still pretty good because I play a few tricky lines and I play aggressively against opponents who are less studied. I’m sure Fridrich will be in the tournament mix for a long time.

The popularization of speed-cubing mirrors that of the internet itself. The advent of youtube and forums allowed the subcult to spread without borders.
Iron sharpens Iron.

I see the future of optimization being about minimizing rotation and idealizing finger tricks.
 
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The King’s Gambit was a top Grand Master opening for hundreds of years. It’s rarely played in serious tournaments anymore.

I still open with the King’s Gambit now and then even though I know full well it’s almost completely busted. My results are still pretty good because I play a few tricky lines and I play aggressively against opponents who are less studied. I’m sure Fridrich will be in the tournament mix for a long time.

Ah, but it's different in Chess. Chess is a competitive sport - you're directly competing against someone else, and your skill is measured by how well you do against others. Since you are responding to your opponent's moves, if you know they are likely to do something before you actually play against them, you can prepare for it. So with the King's Gambit, top players used it for centuries because it was so hard to defend against - but as soon as the defense became common knowledge among top players, it was no longer a good move, because you could be sure that your opponent would know how to beat you if you used it. You're in a position where your opponents sometimes don't know how to beat the King's Gambit, but if you were a grandmaster you could expect your opponents to always know it, so instead of being a good move it would be extremely dangerous.

Apparently Street Fighter (and other competitive fighting games) work in a similar way, although on a much faster timescale. If someone discovers a really great move or combination, it will soon be picked up by everyone because it is a reliable way to do well. But as soon as someone else finds a way to counter it, and that becomes widely known, all of the top players stop using the move. It was only good in the first place because there WAS no defense, and now that everyone can counter it there is no advantage to be gained from using it anymore. (Note that, since Street Fighter is a realtime game, expert players will sometimes use attacks that they know can be easily defended against, because by doing something unexpected they can confuse the opponent into making a mistake in a defense that they don't have practice with. Chess does not have this issue because the opponent always has plenty of time to think about the move before they have to react, so if you try to do something which is easily countered, an experienced opponent will always be able to defend against it.)

On the other hand, cubing isn't competitive in the same sense. You might think cubing is a competitive sport because you go to competitions and compete against others, but in fact all you are doing is trying to solve a particular cube as fast as you can, and the ranking of competitors against each other isn't related to that at all. There is nothing head to head against cubing, and what that means is that if someone is using a really good method there is no possible "defense" - an "opponent" in cubing can't do anything to counter your method, except by getting faster times, which still wouldn't prevent you from using the method. The only reason a cubing method would be invalidated would be if there was one that was released that was significantly better, and even if that did happen it would still be acceptable for people to stick with the old method, because you can still get acceptable times with it. I can imagine a future in which 11.xx official averages are no longer world-class, but I can't imagine one in which 11.xx would not be considered good on an objective scale.

I guess I'd compare cubing in this sense to something like competitive swimming or track. Where we have method, they have form. Since those sports are all about times and there is no direct competition (in the sense that what you do will greatly affect the opponent and vice versa), there is nothing that could invalidate a particular form except the discovery of a better one, and even then it will still be possible to be decent (although not world-class) with the old form.
 
After looking at the Roux method, I would think it is the current best candidate to "beat" the Fridrich method. That is to say, get significant traction with a large number of speed cubers.

It seems to be a cool hybridization of Fridrich, Petrus, and Waterman, without really being too oppressive in the algorithm count. Seems to be freaky fast in the right hands.
 
I still firmly hold the belief that in 20 years, somebody will have solved God's Algorithm purely by their mind, and will be able to explain how to do EVERY SINGLE TIME... in the 15 second pre-inspection time.

I'm actually expecting times of sub-4 by 2030, but that's just me.

And no, I'm never getting there -- I can't even consistently get sub-40s, let alone sub-30s...

But it's fairly obvious somebody's going to come up with something brilliant, if not brilliantly efficient (God's Algorithm = win, Roux, I believe, is one of the closest FMs to GA) in the VERY near future, since the Cube has only been in society for what, 20-30 years now???
 
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god's alg, the most efficient way to solve ever, the minimal amount of moves, only to be beaten by Frank's algorythm which has the minimal amount of moves AND Is fingertrick friendly
 
I thought Frank's Algorithm used fewer than the minimal number of moves. Maybe you're using the wrong one.

More seriously... I'm sorry but I don't think anyone will ever solve the cube optimally by hand in under an hour. Perhaps you don't understand how difficult this actually is... it took some 10 years for computers to advance to the level where they could compute an optimal solution for one scramble. The best I think anyone could ever do would be a basic intuitive 2-phase solution (30ish moves optimally, I think); remember that Kociemba's algorithm has to try many different things to get an optimal sequence, so if you just brute force your way through a 2-phase solution you probably won't get a very efficient solve. You can't just go forward with an intuitive solution and solve the cube optimally; you have to actually try hundreds of times to get a near-optimal solution. It's not feasible.
 
More seriously... I'm sorry but I don't think anyone will ever solve the cube optimally by hand in under an hour. ... You can't just go forward with an intuitive solution and solve the cube optimally; you have to actually try hundreds of times to get a near-optimal solution. It's not feasible.
Unless you're Tony Snyder.
 
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Believe it or not with today's 19 turn solve I only studied for a few seconds. The key is to use what you learned from the algorithms, not the algorithms themselves, then combine and adapt as you go.


I don't think anybody does xD. Who is Tony Snyder anyway?
 
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