Anyone here interested in philosophy?

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Ah ok.
I'm not really interested in discussing politics (particularly in the left/right sense and yes, I understand the connection with philosophy) but thanks for the reply.
 
Well a lot of the authors I've been reading (Deleuze and Guattari, Baudrillard, Hardt and Negri) are very critical of capitalism, and since Adam Smith is the founder of capitalism, there could definitely be some conflict between their views haha

It's probably overstating the case to describe Adam Smith as the founder of capitalism, and while I will agree that capitalism is hardly perfect it's really not that bad.
 
It's probably overstating the case to describe Adam Smith as the founder of capitalism, and while I will agree that capitalism is hardly perfect it's really not that bad.
You're right, Smith definitely wasn't the sole founder of capitalism.
And I agree to a certain extent, on a philosophical level capitalism isn't that bad, but the way it's used can cause lots of harm (mainly a desire for profit facilitated by out of control and unregulated capitalism, like for profit prisons incentivizing incarceration, for example).
 
You're right, Smith definitely wasn't the sole founder of capitalism.
And I agree to a certain extent, on a philosophical level capitalism isn't that bad, but the way it's used can cause lots of harm (mainly a desire for profit facilitated by out of control and unregulated capitalism, like for profit prisons incentivizing incarceration, for example).

Any system can be misused. The worst mass incarcerations in history have been perpetrated by decidedly non-capitalist regimes. Especially the Soviet Union, but also China, North Korea, Pol Pot in Cambodia, etc. In my book starving millions of people to death is much worse than putting thousands or tens of thousands in relatively comfortable prison cells with adequate food and medical care. Not that the latter is at all a good thing, just a lesser evil.

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And, I would add, those regimes that perpetrated mass killings were operating on the assumption that people are merely cogs, to go back to the earlier discussion of souls, and why it matters whether people have souls. Furthermore, the best explanation I've heard for why the Nazis slaughtered millions of Jews in the Holocaust was that they convinced themselves that Jews were mere animals without souls. That's why philosophy matters.
 
Any system can be misused. The worst mass incarcerations in history have been perpetrated by decidedly non-capitalist regimes. Especially the Soviet Union, but also China, North Korea, Pol Pot in Cambodia, etc. In my book starving millions of people to death is much worse than putting thousands or tens of thousands in relatively comfortable prison cells with adequate food and medical care. Not that the latter is at all a good thing, just a lesser evil.

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And, I would add, those regimes that perpetrated mass killings were operating on the assumption that people are merely cogs, to go back to the earlier discussion of souls, and why it matters whether people have souls. Furthermore, the best explanation I've heard for why the Nazis slaughtered millions of Jews in the Holocaust was that they convinced themselves that Jews were mere animals without souls. That's why philosophy matters.
I think those regimes committed those atrocities from the power that they found in things other than capital. The authoritarian left and communism is definitely not a good model for society, but in reality Mao and Pol Pot were really not communists as Marx contextualized it. I think a form of capitalism that is regulated in such a way that there are limits on how far people can go with their power (capital) is the best, such as ensuring corporations aren't getting away tax-free or able to cause harm to minorities or cultures. When corporations go to extreme lengths to ensure they make money, that's where problems start to arise that are much more subtle that Mao's killings but nearly as dangerous. Colonialism in places like India were a result of the British trying to make money, just like how big agriculture companies make a killing off of farmers from our country and others which depriving them of the basic necessities. Some might call this democratic socialism, but I don't think that's the best way to describe it, plus people get a little ancy when they hear about socialism.

Also, regarding the Holocaust, two books in my reading list, Homo Sacer and Frames of War, answer the question you pose very well, with Frames of War being very close to your explanation, although slightly different. Homo Sacer is actually specific to the Holocaust, although I haven't read the entire thing so I don't want to give an innaccurate explanation. Frames of War argues that there are frames embedded in people's perceptions of others that dictate whether or not the other person is recognizable as a human being, which seems to be very true since almost every hate group argues that the subject of their hate is non-human. The nazis believed jews were like animals, the KKK believes blacks are descended from animals, anti-gay groups believe non-heterosexuals are basically non human, etc.
 
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And, I would add, those regimes that perpetrated mass killings were operating on the assumption that people are merely cogs, to go back to the earlier discussion of souls, and why it matters whether people have souls. Furthermore, the best explanation I've heard for why the Nazis slaughtered millions of Jews in the Holocaust was that they convinced themselves that Jews were mere animals without souls. That's why philosophy matters.

This can also be made into an argument against believing that souls matter. For instance, if I didn't believe a soul existed at all, then trying to tell me a particular group of people was absent them, then it wouldn't make a difference to me. Thus, I couldn't be persuaded into committing atrocities on the grounds that I mattered more than some other group.

Edit: Although it just occurred to me, you get a similar result if you couldn't possibly be convinced that no human didn't have a soul (lots of negatives there, sorry). Depending on the particular set of ethics one subscribes to, they could never be convinced to kill under any condition.
 
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This can also be made into an argument against believing that souls matter. For instance, if I didn't believe a soul existed at all, then trying to tell me a particular group of people was absent them, then it wouldn't make a difference to me. Thus, I couldn't be persuaded into committing atrocities on the grounds that I mattered more than some other group.

I was noting two different things going on. The clearest examples are perhaps The Soviet Union and Nazi Germany. My understanding is that the average German in the 1930s and 40s took the existence of the soul for granted, but they allowed themselves to be convinced that Jews (and other groups, but predominantly Jews) were inferior. If I believe that I have a soul and you don't that opens up the door for all sorts of atrocities.

The Soviet Union example is perhaps the more pertinent here. In that case the Soviet government was an explicitly atheist state: they denied the existence of God, individual souls, etc. So in that system everyone is understood to have equal value, but only inasmuch as you benefit society. In their understanding the Kulaks, for example, were a detriment to society, and since they did not have any special value as human beings they were subjected to terrible persecution, and millions were killed. Ultimately it doesn't really matter if you believe that one group of people has less value than you do because you have a soul and they don't, or because nobody has a soul and they're in your way. Either way, when you suggest that either some people or all people do not have inherent and transcendent value as human beings you run into really big problems.
 
When corporations go to extreme lengths to ensure they make money, that's where problems start to arise that are much more subtle that Mao's killings but nearly as dangerous. Colonialism in places like India were a result of the British trying to make money, just like how big agriculture companies make a killing off of farmers from our country and others which depriving them of the basic necessities.

I think you might be underestimating the scale of Mao's killings. R.J Rummel, in his book Death by Government estimates that the number of Chinese people killed by the communist government between 1949 and 1987 at 35,200,000, possibly as high as 102,000,000 and with an extreme low-end estimate of 6,000,000. At the very low end that's 3/4 the population of New York City, with a most likely figure somewhere between the entire population of California and the entire population of Texas, and possibly as much as the combined populations of California, Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island.

As to agriculture, I'm not sure it's fair to blame big agriculture companies. I am a farmer, and not a big one, and the problem is mostly government policies not big ag. Big ag is really a result of government policies, not unfettered capitalism.

Frames of War argues that there are frames embedded in people's perceptions of others that dictate whether or not the other person is recognizable as a human being, which seems to be very true since almost every hate group argues that the subject of their hate is non-human. The nazis believed jews were like animals, the KKK believes blacks are descended from animals, anti-gay groups believe non-heterosexuals are basically non human, etc.

Yes, this is pretty much what I'm talking about, I'm just using the term "soul" instead of "frame" because I think there is some basis for objective belief when you talk about a soul, whereas a frame is inherently subjective.
 
I think you might be underestimating the scale of Mao's killings. R.J Rummel, in his book Death by Government estimates that the number of Chinese people killed by the communist government between 1949 and 1987 at 35,200,000, possibly as high as 102,000,000 and with an extreme low-end estimate of 6,000,000. At the very low end that's 3/4 the population of New York City, with a most likely figure somewhere between the entire population of California and the entire population of Texas, and possibly as much as the combined populations of California, Texas, Florida, Pennsylvania, and Rhode Island.
My point is that while Mao's killings were bad, they were not a result of the same forces that resist capitalism that I discuss. His killings were in the name of brutality and authoritarianism towards the working class, which is the opposite of what marx originally called for and extremely opposed to what democratic socialism type forces call for today. Additionally, what I'm saying is that the reason why extreme capitalist endeavors are so dangerous is because they are subtle and no one pays attention to them. Obviously objectively speaking 35 million people dead is worse, but it's the fact that there are certain forms of violence that are subtle such as colonialism that makes my argument matter.
As to agriculture, I'm not sure it's fair to blame big agriculture companies. I am a farmer, and not a big one, and the problem is mostly government policies not big ag. Big ag is really a result of government policies, not unfettered capitalism.
But the government is one of the apparatuses of capitalism that allow it to function unfettered, for example, "free market" principles are employed by the government by implementing things like corporate tax loopholes, which as we all know, means the public pays more taxes and we also get less money to fund things that aid the public. Unfettered capitalism is in the interest of making money and social concerns go by the wayside under that sort of mentality. There are countless other examples of how the government allowing capitalism to do whatever it wants causes harm to society, which I'd be happy to give to you.

@the mods, just so you know all of this stuff is pretty relevant to philosophy, this is just an applied discussion of the philosophy of capitalism and philosophy IS inherently political in certain ways since it deals, generally, with the interactions that occur in society, which could also be called the sociopolitical sphere. Just so you don't think we're getting off topic in the off topic forum (why that matters is a whole another question, I'm just a little sad that you deleted my pretty dank meme)
 
My point is that while Mao's killings were bad, they were not a result of the same forces that resist capitalism that I discuss. His killings were in the name of brutality and authoritarianism towards the working class, which is the opposite of what marx originally called for and extremely opposed to what democratic socialism type forces call for today. Additionally, what I'm saying is that the reason why extreme capitalist endeavors are so dangerous is because they are subtle and no one pays attention to them. Obviously objectively speaking 35 million people dead is worse, but it's the fact that there are certain forms of violence that are subtle such as colonialism that makes my argument matter.

The problem is that as far as I can tell every country that has made a serious effort to implement Marx's ideas, or what they claim as Marx's ideas, has ended up killing massive numbers of people: the Soviet Union, China, Cambodia, North Korea, even Cuba. You can argue that they haven't implemented the ideas correctly, and you may be right, but it may also be that there is something inherent in the ideas that tends toward really terrible things even if the ideas themselves are not explicitly bad.

But the government is one of the apparatuses of capitalism that allow it to function unfettered, for example, "free market" principles are employed by the government by implementing things like corporate tax loopholes, which as we all know, means the public pays more taxes and we also get less money to fund things that aid the public. Unfettered capitalism is in the interest of making money and social concerns go by the wayside under that sort of mentality. There are countless other examples of how the government allowing capitalism to do whatever it wants causes harm to society, which I'd be happy to give to you.

@the mods, just so you know all of this stuff is pretty relevant to philosophy, this is just an applied discussion of the philosophy of capitalism and philosophy IS inherently political in certain ways since it deals, generally, with the interactions that occur in society, which could also be called the sociopolitical sphere. Just so you don't think we're getting off topic in the off topic forum (why that matters is a whole another question, I'm just a little sad that you deleted my pretty dank meme)

A true free market would not be regulated by the government. I do not advocate such a pure system, I do believe that some controls are necessary. In the case of agriculture I do believe that many of the current problems were caused by government interference (at the time probably necessary due to labor shortage because of many young men in the military) in farming during WWII. The bad news is that even though the problems were caused by government interference, if the government were to get out altogether it would simply exacerbate the problem, as can be seen in many former soviet satellite states now. The good news in the United States is that farm policy is actually moving in the right direction, but that's a very long discussion that has very little to do with philosophy and much more to do with economics.
 
Just a suggestion. I think we should make a separate thread for economics/politics and keep this one for stuff like epistomology or metaphysics
 
You kiddies are all being tremendously naive, trying to explain mass murder by religion or politics. In reality, religion and politics are merely excuses, or vehicles, that rulers use to manipulate the masses to their own personal will. Usually the explanation for such mass killings is very simple: tribalism (funnily enough I mentioned this in another thread recently). That is, the tendency to associate oneself with a group, and to see other groups as "rivals" or "enemies" or whatever. Those with power simply use religion or politics to enforce their tribal views.

As for Marx vs capitalism, as the discussion seems to be heading towards, I think the proof is in the pudding. Where would you rather live right now; one of the capitalist countries, or a child of communism? You might not like the underlying principles, but the final consequences of capitalism are a more open, more accepting, and more free society. The embracing of all ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations, religions, etc. will only be found in a capitalist society.
 
You kiddies are all being tremendously naive, trying to explain mass murder by religion or politics. In reality, religion and politics are merely excuses, or vehicles, that rulers use to manipulate the masses to their own personal will. Usually the explanation for such mass killings is very simple: tribalism (funnily enough I mentioned this in another thread recently). That is, the tendency to associate oneself with a group, and to see other groups as "rivals" or "enemies" or whatever. Those with power simply use religion or politics to enforce their tribal views.

You bring up an interesting point. Tribalism, in its various forms, may be the strongest driver of what I WANT to do to other people. But at the end of the day what I actually do will be determined by what I believe about the nature of humanity and the existence and nature of God. If I believe that I will burn in hell for eternity if I kill you, then it doesn't matter how much my family hates yours, I'm just going to clench my fist and mutter when we pass each other in the street.
 
You kiddies are all being tremendously naive, trying to explain mass murder by religion or politics. In reality, religion and politics are merely excuses, or vehicles, that rulers use to manipulate the masses to their own personal will. Usually the explanation for such mass killings is very simple: tribalism (funnily enough I mentioned this in another thread recently). That is, the tendency to associate oneself with a group, and to see other groups as "rivals" or "enemies" or whatever. Those with power simply use religion or politics to enforce their tribal views.
If there's anything I've learned from my readings or from sociology courses, there is never one sole cause to societal problems. Authoritarianism on the almost libidinal or psychological level may be caused by tribalism, but it's certainly also caused by things like greed or hate and there is also the question of the structures that allow those killings to take place (which is mainly what I'm talking about). To say that we're both wrong would definitely be an oversimplification of the problem.

As for Marx vs capitalism, as the discussion seems to be heading towards, I think the proof is in the pudding. Where would you rather live right now; one of the capitalist countries, or a child of communism? You might not like the underlying principles, but the final consequences of capitalism are a more open, more accepting, and more free society. The embracing of all ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations, religions, etc. will only be found in a capitalist society.
I think you and One Wheel are misinterpreting my stance. I'm not trying to prove communism is a good thing and I've stated this in a previous post, rather, I am saying that the countries that have implemented "communist" ideals are the exact opposite of communist ideals. Marx thought the proletariat should take back what's theirs from the bourgeoisie, yet the countries that were supposedly communist killed the proletariat. What is really at play here is the manipulation of people's perceptions of communism and marx to think that Mao, Pol Pot, etc were perfect examples of Marx's ideals, when in reality it's completely false. Just because people do it wrong doesn't mean it's not a good philosophy.

What I'm actually talking about here is the idea of democratic socialism or a capitalist economy which is regulated by the government in such a way that huge corporations are not allowed to oppress the masses. If you want to talk about how the proof is in the pudding, look at places like the US vs Scandinavian countries. The US is heralded for being one of the most economically free nations yet it has enormous rates of poverty, mass incarceration, and use of fossil fuels, and income inequality is ridiculous. All of these are a direct result of unregulated capitalism. Poverty and income inequality are made possible by keeping the poor in their place with an absence of a higher minimum wage among lots of other things, while corporations get tax breaks from politicians. Mass incarceration is fueled by the massive waste of time and money called the War on Drugs as well as for-profit prisons, giving an incentive for the government to incarcerate people and basically make them do slave labor for extremely low pay. The use of fossil fuels is symptomatic of capitalism's inherent drive to produce, and insofar as renewable energy is not the most cost effective at the moment, big oil companies would much rather produce as much energy as cheaply as possible without caring what happens to the environment. Plus, you also talk about how capitalism allows for the most acceptance, but what about the image of the black male thug that has been produced by society as a result of continuing cycles of poverty and mass incarceration? Or what about the fact that slavery was inherently tied to the capitalist drive for unregulated labor? Or the commodification of various identity politics movements by capitalism? Or the production of the ideal body image of women by clothing companies? There are many example of how a purely capitalist society does not create acceptance. However, it's not even a question of acceptance anymore as the way oppression is manifested nowadays is in societal structures, which capitalism alters in such a way that people experience lots of hard times, most of which are linked to poverty. Now, let's look at Scandinavian countries. They have what most would consider to be a socialist economy, yet they do not have high tensions with other countries, they don't have a lot of corruption, and they have one of the highest happiness rates in the world. There's your proof in the pudding. It also disproves your tribalism hypothesis since Scandinavia was pretty much the origin of tribalist conquest, with the Vikings a long time ago.

E: Also, the communist countries today that people often reference (China, NoKo) are not communist. China is "communist" because it is technically led by the communist party, but they trade freely with other nations and have a booming capitalist economy. The reason why living conditions are bad in some areas of China is because of the huge amounts of production and capitalist exploitation that takes place, which is actually a result of capitalism, not communism. See, just another example of the subtle ways our perception is tainted by capitalist structures. And North Korea is really just fascism, I doubt there's a single thing in the Communist Manifesto that Kim Jong-un actually abides by.
 
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As for Marx vs capitalism, as the discussion seems to be heading towards, I think the proof is in the pudding. Where would you rather live right now; one of the capitalist countries, or a child of communism? You might not like the underlying principles, but the final consequences of capitalism are a more open, more accepting, and more free society. The embracing of all ethnicities, genders, sexual orientations, religions, etc. will only be found in a capitalist society.
I dont really get this part of your text, communism and Capitalism has nothing do about accepting people, religion or nothing like that. Communism and capitalism is just about economics, in an extremely capitalistic area the state have no power in the economic system and everything is owned by company's that want to make more money and in an extremely communistic area all money goes to the state but the state pays for everything. Communism is "Mine is mine and your are mine" and in a sense everybody owns everything together, there are no classes. Capitalism is "war and peace are business and nothing but business" everything can and will be used to make more money. They have nothing do to with Liberty or fascism, genocide or pride festivals. I think way to many people forget what these words actually mean and give communism a bad name for things it hasnt Done.
 
Yes, communism in its pure form is simply an economic system. Neither communism nor capitalism has anything to do with gun ownership or gay rights.
I think that's a vast oversimplification of how things work. To believe that the economic sphere is entirely separate from the sociopolitical sphere is a false assumption. Everything is always connected in some way or another and there is almost nothing that is entirely separate from another. I'll shamelessly promote articles read in my sociology course, as this one is quite good on this issue: http://sociology.morrisville.edu/readings/SOCI101/Mills-The_Promise_of_Sociology-Chp1.pdf
If you don't feel like reading a lot, you can skip the first page for the most part.
 
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