ZZ Cubers

As much as I like something new in this buisness, I really doubt there is any method a human can execute faster than CFOP - reasons:

- Cross is easy to learn + good cubers say they already find the first slot solution while doing the cross.
- while cube rotation seems bad it also means solving more slots on R than L, wich is good
- OLL (I call this already a big set of algs) but has the fastes recognition of any other LL-step (at least when set in relation to the number of algs)
- PLL are few cases perfect for drilling and many people have already spent much time in optimizing every single case

- CFOP will never punish you for being lucky - this is very importend in my opinion. Every method that burdens you with move restrictions, automatically will punish you

pls stop all the opinions. some of these are founded but stop being such a cfop lover.
-EOLine isn't easy to learn because it does more, but fast ZZ solvers can usually see their first block/pair in inspection.
-why are L moves bad? that's your opinion, again. L moves are just as fast as R for me.
-people are used to recognizing oll. if you're used to recognizing ZBLL, it can be just as fast. just because there are more cases doesn't make it more difficult to recognize. maybe at first, but after a while ZBLL will seem more natural or as natural as oll
-ZBLL are also good for drilling, just takes longer

-what method punished you for being lucky? lol a idk about you but there's a pause for me when I get skips, just like there will be for a Roux CMLL skip or
oh wait, there won't be skips in ZBLL because you're forcing one every solve, so there won't be pauses.

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but I think your statements are flawed. I use cfop, but for different reasons. cfop is NOT inherently better than other methods, lol.


if you're using ZZ, you don't need ZBLS. that's the whole point :)
 
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- CFOP will never punish you for being lucky - this is very importend in my opinion. Every method that burdens you with move restrictions, automatically will punish you

Does any method actually punish anyone for being lucky?
I can't recall the last time I found a block or an OLL/LL skip and was like, UGH, I GOT A SKIP WHY.

If anything, ZZ is luckier than CFOP by a wide margin. Something like 800% more LL skips, more OLL skips, more skips in the F2L such as pre-formed blocks and things.
 
Does any method actually punish anyone for being lucky?
I can't recall the last time I found a block or an OLL/LL skip and was like, UGH, I GOT A SKIP WHY.

If anything, ZZ is luckier than CFOP by a wide margin. Something like 800% more LL skips, more OLL skips, more skips in the F2L such as pre-formed blocks and things.

Yea! ZZs the best we just need more people practicing it as much as CFOP is to realize it's true potential
 
So, if I was to learn a 1LLL system, would ZZ-b or ZZ-blah be the way to go?
I'm currently trying to decide which to learn.
 
So, if I was to learn a 1LLL system, would ZZ-b or ZZ-blah be the way to go?
I'm currently trying to decide which to learn.

ZZ-blah is similar to WV except you de-orient the corners instead of orienting them. However, you would need fewer algs because you have two orientation to set up to rather than one.
I personally think that ZZ-b is way underrated. That is what I plan to learn soon, but you may have trouble finding algs.
If someone could get ZZLL algs that would be great. I would like <R,U,D> algs with only two D moves, as well as <R,U,F> and <R,U,L> algs for when they work better.
 
Thanks for your comments, folks. I edited my post accordingly so my point was actually that for ZZ-a you need ~480 ZBLL cases to learn as well as 100-150 ZBLS cases.

As mentioned, this is too much IMO and I have serious doubts about the recognition times for ZBLS & ZZBL. I found only 1 video out there of a guy using ZZBL and for one of his solves he needed more than 4s to recognize the ZBLL case. For most of the others he needed ~1.5s and I'm pretty sure that a cuber of his capabilities (15s solver with ZZ-a) would be able to do ZZLL recognition in 0.75s - or less, on average.

I'm all for learning full ZZ-a, but I think that's of very little advantage, time-wise, if at all, over ZZ-b.

P.S. I don't remember who posted this, but ZZ-WV ALWAYS gives you an OLL-skip!

ZZ-blah is similar to WV except you de-orient the corners instead of orienting them. However, you would need fewer algs because you have two orientation to set up to rather than one.
I personally think that ZZ-b is way underrated. That is what I plan to learn soon, but you may have trouble finding algs.
If someone could get ZZLL algs that would be great. I would like <R,U,D> algs with only two D moves, as well as <R,U,F> and <R,U,L> algs for when they work better.

This is my source and it's easily found (as opposed to algs for ZZ-blah, which I found interesting as well but didn't find alg.s for):
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1PNdfgzfJ4xefLuNOn4e9jfS9JiwjxvBLcaysU44M5Z8/edit
These are already optimized, apparently, but lack Sune & Antisune.

This page has all cases, but not optimized:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2...2I5LWFmZjgtM2FlNzFhM2EyNmNl/view?ddrp=1&hl=en
 
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my point was actually that for ZZ-a you need ~480 ZBLL cases to learn as well as 100-150 ZBLS cases.

As mentioned, this is too much IMO and I have serious doubts about the recognition times for ZZLS & ZZBL. I only found 1 video out there of a guy using ZZBL and for one of his solves he needed more than 4s to recognize the ZBLL case. For most of the others he needed ~1.5s and I'm pretty sure that a cuber of his capabilities (15s solver with ZZ-a) would be able to do ZZLL recognition in 0.75s - or less, on average.

The fact that you keep saying things like ZZLS shows how little you know about the methods.

Do you actually consider yourself even qualified to make those statements just because you've watched a single youtube video. Do you think it's even fair to base an entire opinion regarding an entire method based on a single solve?

That's worse saying you're qualified to do a job after reading the wikipedia description of one.

Do you even know how ZZLL is recognised? Do you even have systems? Do you even know the scope of the methods you're planning on learning?
It sounds like you're making broad statements on subjects that you haven't even researched deeply.
 
The fact that you keep saying things like ZZLS shows how little you know about the methods.

Do you actually consider yourself even qualified to make those statements just because you've watched a single youtube video. Do you think it's even fair to base an entire opinion regarding an entire method based on a single solve?

That's worse saying you're qualified to do a job after reading the wikipedia description of one.

Do you even know how ZZLL is recognised? Do you even have systems? Do you even know the scope of the methods you're planning on learning?
It sounds like you're making broad statements on subjects that you haven't even researched deeply.

"ZZLS" was a typo and I corrected it. And the video I referred to shows a 10/12 and I specifically said that in one of his solves it took him >4s and for the rest it took him ~1.5s.

The fact that you're flaming about my potentially lacking knowledge on what I'm advocating tells me that you were too lazy to even read my first post on page 21, where I said that after full CFOP - ~30 F2L algs plus full OLL and PLL, that is - I learned 20/80 unique ZZLL algs already and that I assume I'll have all 80 down and in my muscle memory within the next 4-6 months.

So, yeah, I guess I know more than enough to post here on ZZ-b etc.

What's your point anyway? Do you do full ZZ-a? If yes, you're probably one of a couple dozen cubers worldwide - good for you, let me know how it's going. Specifically, I'd like to know how your ZZ-a times compare to your CFOP times (no sarcasm here).
 
Yes, I do know it.
I've actually learned it twice over.

It's so cute that you think you know a method because you learned a measly twenty algs. You deserve a medal and some praise.

My ZZ-A lags 3 seconds behind my CFOP.
Which isn't even a good comparison because I've used F2L and CFOP for at least three years, and I've been doing ZZ since Feburary.
 
Yes, I do know it.
I've actually learned it twice over.

It's so cute that you think you know a method because you learned a measly twenty algs. You deserve a medal and some praise.

My ZZ-A lags 3 seconds behind my CFOP.
Which isn't even a good comparison because I've used F2L and CFOP for at least three years, and I've been doing ZZ since Feburary.

I don't know what your problem is. Just reread what I said and if you see flaws, come up with valid points - which are entirely absent in your replies so far.
 
You think recognition for ZZ-B is faster than ZZ-A?
Your very source that you posted listed a ZZ-A style recognition.

This shows you have no idea how ZZ-A is recognized and that you have not done your research.

My point is that you haven't put enough work and time in to understand the statements you're making about ZZ.
 
Thanks for your comments, folks. I edited my post accordingly so my point was actually that for ZZ-a you need ~480 ZBLL cases to learn as well as 100-150 ZBLS cases.

As mentioned, this is too much IMO and I have serious doubts about the recognition times for ZBLS & ZZBL. I found only 1 video out there of a guy using ZZBL and for one of his solves he needed more than 4s to recognize the ZBLL case. For most of the others he needed ~1.5s and I'm pretty sure that a cuber of his capabilities (15s solver with ZZ-a) would be able to do ZZLL recognition in 0.75s - or less, on average.

I'm all for learning full ZZ-a, but I think that's of very little advantage, time-wise, if at all, over ZZ-b.

P.S. I don't remember who posted this, but ZZ-WV ALWAYS gives you an OLL-skip!

Lets geralize all ZZ-a users based on one guy, lol. Get bindeDSA in here, iirc he can recognize and execute in 3 seconds. Thats feliks' LL.
 
"ZZLS" was a typo and I corrected it. And the video I referred to shows a 10/12 and I specifically said that in one of his solves it took him >4s and for the rest it took him ~1.5s.

The fact that you're flaming about my potentially lacking knowledge on what I'm advocating tells me that you were too lazy to even read my first post on page 21, where I said that after full CFOP - ~30 F2L algs plus full OLL and PLL, that is - I learned 20/80 unique ZZLL algs already and that I assume I'll have all 80 down and in my muscle memory within the next 4-6 months.

So, yeah, I guess I know more than enough to post here on ZZ-b etc.

What's your point anyway? Do you do full ZZ-a? If yes, you're probably one of a couple dozen cubers worldwide - good for you, let me know how it's going. Specifically, I'd like to know how your ZZ-a times compare to your CFOP times (no sarcasm here).

Do you know that the videos you watched are very possibly made by 4Chan? I would say it is not particularly wise to argue with a full ZBLL learner. On ZBLL. That's like arguing about Roux with Alex Lau.
 
Wow, for the lack of arguments they're pulling out the VIP card - interesting.

It's this video here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uA4QBVKZjwA

And as long as this issue is concerned (recognition times of ZBLL vs. ZZLL), I don't care who he is and I shouldn't. How do I not know how ZBLL cases are recognized? They are recognized the same way as ZZLL cases, just that there usually are 12 cases for every COLL case instead of 4 and so it's impossible that this is as fast or even faster than ZZLL case recognition (everything else being equal, of course, same cuber, same cube etc.). I don't have to know full ZBLL to know that, for a fact. I don't have to climb Mt. Everest to know it's 8848 m high.

One general issue worth mentioning, because there's an obvious lack of statistically accurate thinking here and in practically all other cubing threads: Different methods *COULD*, in fact, be compared regarding their velocity. But all variables other than the method would need to be equal and that is incredibly hard to achieve. There would have to be large enough cohorts for each method and every parameter would need to be precisely controlled - and that's not possible at this point because of the lack of the aforementioned cohort sizes and the fact that important control parameters like experience etc. can only vaguely be assessed.

But to say it's conceptually impossible is plain wrong.
 
I agree with 4chan here, maybe you all shouldn't make claims about things that you haven't put any effort in and actually tried and maybe you should not gravedig this useless thread and rather put it in the zz/zb homethread.
 
Just to introduce myself, I've been using ZZ since 2009 and achieved world class OH times with the method. If ZZ had a textbook, I'd most likely be one of the people to write it.

Personally, I think a fair comparison of ZZ-a and ZZ-b requires considering the user and his or her capacity to memorize and quickly load algorithms as well as his or her capacity to phase effectively. If you take out the user, I think both areas are too abstract to really warrant definite comparison.

I noticed gewinnste posted a longer post on page 21, so I'm going to respond to that.

EO-line takes about 0.8 moves more than the cross and so a tiny bit longer

Theoretically, sure. But, EO line is far more abstract than the cross. Optimal solutions may not be as finger friendly as good CFOP crosses. Some optimal EO line solutions are also extremely nonobvious.

3gen F2L in ZZ takes about the same amount of moves as CFOP-F2L (move restrictions in ZZ-F2L being made up by block building possibilities) but will actually be a bit faster because of no cube rotations and being 3-gen.

High level CFOP solvers often see their first pair during inspection. Doing ZZ effectively (getting that good move count) often requires finding a good first block. This can be difficult because ZZ offers twice the choice in terms of where to start (CFOP offers you one of four pairs while ZZ offers you one of four pairs and one of four blocks). I would say that the decision-making in ZZ is more complex. The move counts may be similar, but the process of solving and the flow is very different.

When I compare CFOP and ZZ, I usually like to think that CFOP is more directly productive and that ZZ saves its effectiveness for the end at the cost of an abstract beginning. CFOP solves 4 pieces after inspection, and generally requires solving two pieces at once four times. It is very organized. Modern CFOP is fast because the cross is straightforward and the solver aggressively solves pair after pair due to the lack of strain on decision-making. ZZ is very open-ended in the beginning of the F2L. But, once you get the first block, the rest of the F2L can be solved in one physical motion without stopping. Until then, the beginning of ZZ is very stressful. When someone says that ZZ F2L is "better" than CFOP F2L, I interpret that as they believe that eventually, ZZ solvers will be able to make decisions as quickly as CFOP solvers during the F2L so as to not slow down during the beginning of the ZZ F2L.

ZZ-b stuff

ZZ-b has some complications that you didn't specifically mention. For example, to phase effectively, you would have to phase using all four slots. I've never considered phasing seriously, but I'd imagine that phasing with all four slots seamlessly can get difficult. I've noticed that some people say that phasing is "lightweight", but I personally can't grasp phasing fluently without stopping using all four slots. Also, ZZ-b arguably adds another "look" in the phasing step. It's probably lighter than your average look, but it's arguably still a look.

P.S. I think that ZZ-a is just overkill (~100-150 cases for ZBLS + ~480 cases for ZBLL) and will likely not even be faster than ZZ-b because of the longer recognition times for the ZBLS and ZBLL cases.

People have already pointed this out, but to reiterate, the "~100-150 cases for ZBLS" you mention do not exist if you are doing ZZ-a. The whole point of ZZ-a is to do a regular ZZ F2L, which draws a fine line between the F2L and the LL. ZZ-a is just ZZ F2L + ZBLL. It's pretty simple conceptually. Part of the appeal of doing a normal ZZ F2L (which is what ZZ-a requires) is that you can aggressively solve your F2L without the added abstraction of phasing. To me, the phasing represents kind of an awkward speed bump in the solve. But, this could just be because I'm not completely fluent in phasing.

Generally

The reason I say that the comparison is personal is because both methods require capacity that I consider significantly above average. ZZ-a requires the ability to memorize a large number of algorithms while ZZ-b requires coping with another level of abstraction. If your strong suit is memorizing more algorithms than 99% of the cubing population, then ZZ-a might be better. If you don't fear the abstraction of phasing, then perhaps ZZ-b is the way to go. Making a comparison to determine which is better theoretically is a bit too abstract.

I think some of the people here were in the mood to argue because your comparison contained information that was not exactly correct (particularly, lumping ZBLS with ZZ-a). Personally, I believe that there are a lot of details in these methods that you can only appreciate once you've seriously studied them. Else, comparing the methods on a theoretical level isn't useful, since the discussion doesn't capture a lot of the things needed to make a fair comparison. I've been doing ZZ for a very long time, and I am well aware of many of its strengths and weaknesses.

Of course, you had prefaced your opinions with the "IMO". But, still, I guess some felt strongly about the issue because you are relatively unknown while they've invested significant time in learning this stuff. The whole thing about being relatively unknown shouldn't be too relevant, but it is here on this forum, realistically. Anyway, I hope the posters didn't give you a bad time. I think they are just very passionate about what they do.
 
Does any method actually punish anyone for being lucky?
... ZZ is luckier than CFOP by a wide margin. Something like 800% more LL skips, more OLL skips, more skips in the F2L such as pre-formed blocks and things.

Even 800% will not make me a millionair in todays lottery, I was thinking more of the small things that really happen alot, like this F2L-Slot pieces that just pop into my view, just the moment I need them, but you will argue thats just my lack of blockbuilding skill - so be it.


Finally an exsample where a method punishes you for being lucky:

- when pasing running into the case where no extra move is needed (lucky and even common), but you are punished the same moment, because you spent time realizing you were lucky.

P.S. people will say they don't loose time for realization - that's a lie - ask Heissenberg about it.
 
I noticed that no one has posted on this thread for a year and a half now so I thought I might :).
I recently switched from CFOP (averaging around 14 secs) to ZZ. I can't help but notice that there still aren't that many world class ZZ users in comparison to the number of CFOP users. Personally, I believe that a method such as ZZ-CT has so much potential. This is why I switched and I think that it should be more recognised. I myself would really like to see how fast people can get with this method . Perhaps any ZZ users or ZZ-CT users could post there averages on here as I am curious as to how fast some people are with it and how many people actually use ZZ-CT or still use ZZ.
 
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