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ZZ-blah

mpohl100

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Jul 5, 2008
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51
whoah
this method rocks
I'll start ZZ right now to learn EOline and then I'll try my best on intuitive Corner control.
The big big big advantage of no corners oriented is that you only have to look at the 4 top stickers which is awesome for recognition.
You rock man!!!!!

I can't wait for a complete list of algorithms.

Thanks in advance

Michael
 

mpohl100

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The zero corners oriented approach is better! Case recognition is so easy because all the non-U colors are on U.
The big big big advantage of no corners oriented is that you only have to look at the 4 top stickers which is awesome for recognition.
I don't get it. How do you have eight corner stickers on U?
Well Stefan,
I think you are intelligent enough to understand what he wants to say ;-)
 

Stefan

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Well Stefan,
I think you are intelligent enough to understand what he wants to say ;-)
Apparently not. Yes, it reduces the number of cases, which probably makes it easier. But the way it makes it easier that you're talking about is not clear to me. I can only recognize OLL and PLL. Should I be able to recognize CLL to understand the benefit you're talking about?
 

blah

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The big big big advantage of no corners oriented is that you only have to look at the 4 top stickers which is awesome for recognition.

Exactly. I think I've already mentioned this, or I may not have, can't keep track of what I've posted and what I haven't with all the double/triple/quadruple posting in this thread :p

But there's even more to the "zero corners oriented" approach than just this. 2 more advantages, in fact.

Firstly, it has the fewest algorithms among all the "n corners oriented" groups (n < 4 :p), because it includes the Double Sune case, which has fewer algs than any other cross-OLL case because of its symmetry.

Secondly, corner control is much easier than the traditional way, because you have multiple algs to choose from. What do I mean by this? In classical/traditional corner control methods, you control the corners such that they are all oriented in ONE specific direction, so you would need different algs for all 54 COLS cases (excluding mirrors). For my approach, you would control corners such that they are all NOT oriented in a specific direction, in other words, corner control becomes sort of a "one-to-many function" instead of a "many-to-one function", so you have lots of freedom in applying and choosing algs, because you're fine with either 4 (do PLL in this case) or 0 corners oriented, whereas in the traditional approach, your only goal is to have 4 corners oriented.

Just to make the second point clearer in case it was too confusing, in the traditional approach, take for example the Winter Variation, you can only apply R U' R' and U R U2 R' to 2 specific cases, whereas in my approach, these 2 simple "algs" (I really wouldn't call them algs) can be applied to 14 out of 27 cases - that's more than half the total number of cases!
 

blah

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But the way it makes it easier that you're talking about is not clear to me. I can only recognize OLL and PLL. Should I be able to recognize CLL to understand the benefit you're talking about?

I can't tell if you're pretending not to understand in order to point out some flaw in my sentence, or if you really don't understand.

In case it's some flaw in my sentence, maybe I should've said "Case recognition is so easy because all the U stickers are not on U." Other than that, I can't really think of anything else :eek:

In case you really don't understand (since you mentioned you can only recognize OLL and PLL, I take it that you can't recognize COLL?), the answer to your question would be: Yup.

For CxLL recognition, I think most people look at the non-U-colored stickers to look for color patterns, instead of tracing where each piece goes. (Similar to how PLL recognition is mostly done by identifying blocks, instead of manually tracing where each piece belongs.)

When all 4 corners are misoriented, the U face would only have non-U-colored stickers on the corners, which makes recognition almost instant. When, for example, only 2 corners are misoriented, I would have to look at the U-face stickers of the misoriented corners, then one of the non-U-face stickers of the oriented corners to identify the CxLL case, which is slightly slower.
 
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mpohl100

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Well Stefan,
I think you are intelligent enough to understand what he wants to say ;-)
Apparently not. Yes, it reduces the number of cases, which probably makes it easier. But the way it makes it easier that you're talking about is not clear to me. I can only recognize OLL and PLL. Should I be able to recognize CLL to understand the benefit you're talking about?
Oh Stefan I am sorry.
I thought you would know all COLL cases and thus I assumed you knew how to recognize them.
SO here is my explanation:
If you have the headlights case and both unoriented corners are facing you then you can just see two stickers. That's not enough for recognizing the case. So you have to do a y2 to see what case it is.
If all corners ar unoriented you can see four stickers on top and you can define the case by only these 4 stickers. THus you don't have to perform a cube rotation to recognize the case.
=> a very fast recognition for COLL case

AS I am already able to recognize which COLL I have to perform quite fast if no corners are oriented it won't take me much practice to be good at that.
I would just have to learn to recognize what edges have to be flipped in order to get a fast LL case recognition.

But I am not using COLL in normal solves if you are wondering. But I always know which corners switch places when I apply my OLL alg.

Michael

Edit:

This page might help you out if you don't understand what I meant:
http://www.cubewhiz.com/coll.html
 
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blah

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I would just have to learn to recognize what edges have to be flipped in order to get a fast LL case recognition.

You mean swapped. There's no need to flip any edge.

In case you didn't know, there's no need to use ZZF2L actually, Petrus F2L up to "Step 4a-and-a-half" is exactly the same thing.

And I think it's worth mentioning that this could very well be the ultimate weapon that can finally make Petrus users faster than Fridrich users! I hope :D I really wanna see some Petrus guys get sub-12 in competition with this 1LLL.
 

MHordecki

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That sounds pretty neat.

In my opinion, however, how much value is added there in comparison with ZZ.b? If I understand it correctly, you're basically doing 'corner orientation' phasing-esque step (as opposed to 'edge permutation' phasing in ZZ.b). Then comes an 1LLL. (yeah, there's quite different recognition, but only time will tell which of these two last slot approaches is faster).

One could use it, though, as an excellent transition tool between ZZ-VH and ZZ.a. I can imagine me using it to restrict LL to only these ZBLL categories that i know, and then proceeding, step-by-step, to the full speed ZZF2L.
 

mpohl100

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I would just have to learn to recognize what edges have to be flipped in order to get a fast LL case recognition.

You mean swapped. There's no need to flip any edge.

In case you didn't know, there's no need to use ZZF2L actually, Petrus F2L up to "Step 4a-and-a-half" is exactly the same thing.

And I think it's worth mentioning that this could very well be the ultimate weapon that can finally make Petrus users faster than Fridrich users! I hope :D I really wanna see some Petrus guys get sub-12 in competition with this 1LLL.
I am a full fridrich user. I am sorry for that.
I think MGLS or ZBF2L is better for me to orient the edges of the last layer.
And I am sorry for the wrong term. I always mess that up ;-)

How long do you think will it take you to finish the algs?
I am keen on this method now. I want to learn it!!!!! Can't wait for it.
 

blah

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In my opinion, however, how much value is added there in comparison with ZZ.b? If I understand it correctly, you're basically doing 'corner orientation' phasing-esque step (as opposed to 'edge permutation' phasing in ZZ.b). Then comes an 1LLL. (yeah, there's quite different recognition, but only time will tell which of these two last slot approaches is faster).

Actually, I have thought of the advantages this approach has over ZZ-b :rolleyes: Note that this "advantage" might not appear to be an advantage to everyone else, but at least it is to me.

It's the same advantage ELS has over F2L (in my opinion). If you insert the last F2L pair the normal way, you'd have to trace 2 pieces. If you do ELS, you'd have to trace 1 edge piece, and at the same time, observe the orientation of the LL edges that don't "move around".

Similarly, I don't like the concept of phasing as much as corner control because phasing involves tracing pieces. Corner control involves observing the orientation of "fixed pieces", and besides, my U stickers are the brightest colors on my cube anyway, whereas my FBRL stickers are relatively darker colors, making them harder to trace. I simply prefer observing to tracing. That's all.

As for, the 1LLL, my approach already has fewer algs than ZZ-b does :D Does that count as an advantage? However, ZZ-b's 1LLL has an advantage in that edge permutation is much more easily identified, making recognition for ZZLL as fast as COLL.

I really can't decide which is better :p Like you said, time will tell (provided there are enough people who use these methods :rolleyes:).
 

Stefan

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Geez, we need an "I'm serious" antismiley that I can use to make it clear I'm in no way kidding or hiding something.

I still don't understand how four stickers are enough to determine the case. If I see let's say a red sticker, it could still be either the yellow/green/red corner or the yellow/red/blue corner. Does that not matter?

And no, I really can't recognize CLL (or CxLL or whatever you call it). Not quickly without thinking, at least. I guess I should finally learn that...
 
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blah

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Geez, we need an "I'm serious" antismiley that I can use to make it clear I'm in no way kidding or hiding something.
As a matter of fact, we do :D We need an "I'm being sarcastic" antismiley too :rolleyes:

I still don't understand how four stickers are enough to determine the case. If I see let's say a red sticker, it could still be either the yellow/green/red corner or the yellow/red/blue corner. Does that not matter?
Nope. Doesn't matter. Take a look at this: http://www.stanford.edu/~leyanlo/coll.htm

Scroll down to look at the Pi and H cases.

I'll go through every case just to help you understand. Now take a look at the 6 Pi cases. If you AUF them the same way everytime (in Leyan's case, he AUFs such that the Pi's head is on R, and its two legs run along F and B, try to understand what I just described, think Greek letter), then look at the U face, you'll notice color patterns.

On Leyan's page, they're in this order:
Pi1 Double vertical bars
Pi2 Cross
Pi3 Right vertical bar
Pi4 Left vertical bar
Pi5 "Slash"
Pi6 "Backslash" (his image is wrong, it's supposed to be just a backslash, the other two colors should be different, not both green)

It doesn't even matter what colors the bars are, nor does it matter whether they're F or B or R or L stickers. Get it?

In case you need more clarification, the H cases on Leyan's page are in this order:
H1 Double vertical bars
H2 Double horizontal bars
H3 Vertical bar
H4 Horizontal bar

Get it now?
 

Johannes91

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I still don't understand how four stickers are enough to determine the case. If I see let's say a red sticker, it could still be either the yellow/green/red corner or the yellow/red/blue corner. Does that not matter?
Nope. Doesn't matter. Take a look at this: http://www.stanford.edu/~leyanlo/coll.htm
I haven't ever understood that claim, either, even though I used to use that recognition system (now I prefer "free-style").

Look at H1 and H2 on that page. The 4 stickers on U-face alone aren't enough, you're ignoring the fact that you know where the yellow stickers are. You could say that "only 4 of the 8 non-U-coloured corner stickers are enough", but that's kinda obvious.
 
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bamman1108

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Dec 12, 2008
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209
ZZ-b

ZZF2L:
EOLine
Blockbuilding of one side
Finishing F2L + phasing (i.e. permuting two opposite LL edges)

ZZLL:
ZZLL - 1-look LL

The regular ZZ-b method has 167 algorithms, which is fewer, so recognition should be easier as well. I'd like to see both methods side-by-side when this method is ready.
 
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