What's with newbie cubers lately?

[fanwuq]

Harris made some good points.
Skip this part---(After learning simple 3 alg LBL, i printed out sheet of algs and did not look at them. I ended up learning the idea of petrus from another friend in about 5minutes and somehow ended up with Friedrich myself. Most of the time, I think I go on this site to read about cubing, then I got to youtube to watch cubing, then I practice by (think of crazy random new methods and algs for pyraminx and 3x3, practice fingertricks, practice slow solving trying to not stop at all while counting moves). I actually rarely speed cube anymore, but getting faster rather than being able to solve more efficiently seems to be the goal some how.)

I never seen any noobs cramming algs. It's not fun, I don't think anyone actually does that.
I use fridrich, but i really like Petrus. I ended up with Fridrich myself because I'm too stupid to learn all the clever block building techniques. The best method in my opinion is to build blocks like Heise for F2L, and finish with MGLS. I don't think it would be the fastest or most efficient, but a good combination that looks fun to try.

 

[Dene]

I think I should join Lofty and work on Petrus. It would be really good with MGLS. Or maybe something like a combination of 2x2x2 block, then extend to 2x2x3, then do the third slot like Fridrich, then MGLS, then PLL.

 

[pcharles93]

That is not how I would define a noob at all...
Somone cubing on their own will have to figure things out thus adding understanding to the cube but people consulting us could just do more blind memorizing.

Lofty, there is a difference between "newb" and "noob."

 

[Lofty]

I did not know there was...
@Dene- haha that goes right along with what I just posted in OH. I am not working on it that hardcore tho. I was thinking Petrus to MGLS to PLL. Seems like the master OH method.

 

[TimMc]

IMO figuring it out on your own is the funnest way. Then you just need to memorize the method you come up with and practice a lot!

You'll eventually realize that certain things you're doing are really inefficient and then work on improving them. You would've acquired the knowledge doing it the hard way by now and be able to discard crap move sequences and either come up with some new ones or learn some online.

There's obviously a big difference between someone learning all the algorithms and someone who just learns a few at a time with a crap method and gradually learns more. Although, this difference is diminished by the presence of fast learners

Tim.

 

[shelley]

There is a misconception among new cubers that learning a lot of new algorithms will get you faster. And when you learn your PLLs and can do what previously took you two steps in one step, it does seem that way.

And like Harris said, the perception of cubing has changed now. People aren't content to just be able to solve it anymore, they want to get fast. And learning algorithms appears to be the simplest way to get faster. After all, they can measure their progress by how many algorithms they've learned. It sometimes takes them a while to realize learning the algs is only a small part of what will make you faster.

 

[jackolanternsoup]

I agree with TimMC.. I spent around 3 weeks figuring out how to solve the first two layers (i cheated a bit and read the process on the steps; solve cross then insert corners....) and came up with my own alg for edge inserting but i couldn't get LL....... Not as pro as will smith unfortunately.. got it on his 3rd or 4th try right?

anyway, I think just so people know how the cube works, they should try to solve the cube themselves first until they can't

 

[joey]

but i couldn't get LL....... Not as pro as will smith unfortunately.. got it on his 3rd or 4th try right?

Is that a joke? He was taught by Tyson Mao.

 

[JU1CYFRU1T]

I think the people to 'blame' for newbs (myself included) learning all the algs first, are the 'experts' giving the wrong advice.

Example:
There was a thread here a few weeks back, and it was someone asking how to get faster (one of the 400 threads a week). 99.9% of the advice given was 'lean F2L'... 'learn your PLLs and get yourself down to a 3LLL'... 'after you have the 3LLL, learn all 57 OLLs for a 2LLL'...

NO ONE bothered to suggest looking ahead (the most important part of getting faster). I was cubing for ~3 months before I read about looking ahead... and just practicing looking ahead (and going REALLY slowly), I cut ~20 seconds off my average.

According to Macky, a person who is REALLY good at LBL could average 30 seconds... simply by eliminating all pauses. (I say according to Macky because he said it on his site... not because I disagree)

Don't blame the newb who learned full Fredrich, but is still averaging 1 minute... blame the person who told him learning full Fredrich was going to make him fastest (without practice).

 

[Lofty]

I think the people to 'blame' for newbs (myself included) learning all the algs first, are the 'experts' giving the wrong advice.

Example:
There was a thread here a few weeks back, and it was someone asking how to get faster (one of the 400 threads a week). 99.9% of the advice given was 'lean F2L'... 'learn your PLLs and get yourself down to a 3LLL'... 'after you have the 3LLL, learn all 57 OLLs for a 2LLL'...

NO ONE bothered to suggest looking ahead (the most important part of getting faster). I was cubing for ~3 months before I read about looking ahead... and just practicing looking ahead (and going REALLY slowly), I cut ~20 seconds off my average.

According to Macky, a person who is REALLY good at LBL could average 30 seconds... simply by eliminating all pauses. (I say according to Macky because he said it on his site... not because I disagree)

Don't blame the newb who learned full Fredrich, but is still averaging 1 minute... blame the person who told him learning full Fredrich was going to make him fastest (without practice).

Well thats why me and Dene are running around the forum spreading the good news of Petrus!
And idk I am sorry you didn't hear about look ahead but I see it all over the place... At least I see in in some of the threads maybe not all of them...

 

[dChan]

I guess it is just a misconception among new cubers that algorithms are the magical keys to unlock their inner speed. I don't necessarily think they are wrong for thinking that, it is just that they were misguided. I only changed my method from the Beginner's Solution to Keyhole F2L with a 4 look last layer when I started averaging around a minute but if someone wants to go ahead and learn full Fridrich before they can even get to that point, I think that is okay. Why should we be angry that someone wants to go ahead and go straight into Fridrich right away? I only finished learning all the OLL steps a couple of weeks ago and am finally starting to get my time down to where I am hitting a bunch of sub-20s but just imagine if I wasn't lazy and learned all of Fridrich when I hit sub-25(as opposed to using Keyhole and a 3-Look LL) like last year? I would have been super fast by now. If I learned it when I was averaging a minute I would have been really fast by now.

Basically, it just depends on the eprson. If they think they can attack Fridrich right away then let them go ahead and do it. Although they may just remember the algs by repeating them over-and-over in their mind as opposed to really understanding what they are doing I am sure as they progress they will slowly begin to understand exactly what is going on. Nobody really understand the beginner method when they first start right? So it is basically the same thing as that except they are using Fridrich.

 

[Lucas Garron]

I think the people to 'blame' for newbs (myself included) learning all the algs first, are the 'experts' giving the wrong advice.

Humm, true (not naming any names. ). Note that expert advice is voluntary. People asking in this forum are less likely to get a good response to yet another similar question than by looking around...

Example:
There was a thread here a few weeks back, and it was someone asking how to get faster (one of the 400 threads a week).

400?

99.9% of the advice given was 'lean F2L'... 'learn your PLLs and get yourself down to a 3LLL'... 'after you have the 3LLL, learn all 57 OLLs for a 2LLL'...

99.9%? You procure 999 posts like that, and I'll find you more than 1 that has a different response.
But yeah, that's good advice for Fridrich.

NO ONE bothered to suggest looking ahead (the most important part of getting faster).

Sure? Maybe it gets mentioned less often than it should... is it really the most important? (Doesn't reducing delays help more at first? What about practice?)
And it probably gets mentioned a bit...

According to Macky, a person who is REALLY good at LBL could average 30 seconds... simply by eliminating all pauses. (I say according to Macky because he said it on his site... not because I disagree)

Among the 400 posts you read each week, did you catch the one where I averaged sub-20 with beginner's F2L and 3LLL (as was asked in the post), and Erik with 4LLL?

Don't blame the newb who learned full Fredrich, but is still averaging 1 minute... blame the person who told him learning full Fredrich was going to make him fastest (without practice).

May we blame the guy who misspells "Fridrich?"
Blame? It's a suggestion. The "newb" can accept the advice if (s)he wants. If they're willing to learn full OLL and PLL, it can't hurt their eventual speed! And I think you mean "faster" ("fastest" needs full Fridrich nowadays).

By the way, people suggest practice all the time!. Among your 400, I've seen some threads that went:

"How do I get faster?"
"Practice."
"Yeah, practice."
"I agree with the last two posts, practice."
"Yip, practice. And practice. And a bit of look-ahead. And more practice."

 

[jackolanternsoup]

but i couldn't get LL....... Not as pro as will smith unfortunately.. got it on his 3rd or 4th try right?

Is that a joke? He was taught by Tyson Mao.

Yeah actually it was mean't to be a joke and I was referring to in the movie. Not reality

 

[Cubie Newbie]

I completely agree with the points presented in this thread. Newbie cubers (I'm really not a newbie, as my name suggests. I simply chose that name because I liked the somewhat cheesy rhyme.) are more and more inclined to blindly memorize algorithms because SOME OF THE "EXPERTS" ARE DISHING OUT ADVICE LIKE THAT!!! (Probably because that's what they themselves are doing. I believe that the root cause of this problem is that cubing has strayed so far from appreciating the geometric art of the cube and become a sort of contest to see who can load their brains with the most useless algorithms. For me, blindly applying algs isn't fun OR fast.

 

[Lofty]

I wouldn't blame the experts... like Lucas said their advice isn't mandatory. And most of the advice I have seen on here seems pretty good... The advice that I find isn't good is the advice from the newer cubers here...

 

[fanwuq]

I think I should join Lofty and work on Petrus. It would be really good with MGLS. Or maybe something like a combination of 2x2x2 block, then extend to 2x2x3, then do the third slot like Fridrich, then MGLS, then PLL.

I've been practicing petrus lately. I would really like to try that. Seems interesting. which requires less moves, ZB or MGLS? Probably ZB, but better by how much on average?

 

[shelley]

Why "blame" the experts? While it's true that learning algorithms alone won't make you significantly faster, it certainly doesn't hurt. If you want to be sub-20 you're going to have to learn them eventually anyway.

 

[Dene]

I think I should join Lofty and work on Petrus. It would be really good with MGLS. Or maybe something like a combination of 2x2x2 block, then extend to 2x2x3, then do the third slot like Fridrich, then MGLS, then PLL.

I've been practicing petrus lately. I would really like to try that. Seems interesting. which requires less moves, ZB or MGLS? Probably ZB, but better by how much on average?

What do you mean? ZB and MGLS aren't really comparable. ZB has 2 parts to it, last slot and last layer. MGLS only has last slot and OLL. You still have to permute after MGLS.

 

[Lofty]

I think I should join Lofty and work on Petrus. It would be really good with MGLS. Or maybe something like a combination of 2x2x2 block, then extend to 2x2x3, then do the third slot like Fridrich, then MGLS, then PLL.

I've been practicing petrus lately. I would really like to try that. Seems interesting. which requires less moves, ZB or MGLS? Probably ZB, but better by how much on average?

What do you mean? ZB and MGLS aren't really comparable. ZB has 2 parts to it, last slot and last layer. MGLS only has last slot and OLL. You still have to permute after MGLS.

They are very comparable! If you attach PLL to MGLS then they both go from f2l minus one slot to a solved cube. ZB has two steps and averages around 20 moves for them (approximately 8+12) MGLS has 3 steps and averages around 28 (6.5+9.5+12)
So 8 moves gets you way less cases and easier recognition.

 

[Lucas Garron]

I think I should join Lofty and work on Petrus. It would be really good with MGLS. Or maybe something like a combination of 2x2x2 block, then extend to 2x2x3, then do the third slot like Fridrich, then MGLS, then PLL.

I've been practicing petrus lately. I would really like to try that. Seems interesting. which requires less moves, ZB or MGLS? Probably ZB, but better by how much on average?

What do you mean? ZB and MGLS aren't really comparable. ZB has 2 parts to it, last slot and last layer. MGLS only has last slot and OLL. You still have to permute after MGLS.

They are very comparable! If you attach PLL to MGLS then they both go from f2l minus one slot to a solved cube. ZB has two steps and averages around 20 moves for them (approximately 8+12) MGLS has 3 steps and averages around 28 (6.5+9.5+12)
So 8 moves gets you way less cases and easier recognition.

Alright, we're straying...
ELS is ideally sub-6 (ignoring influencing it to be lower/skipped)
9.5 is an old estimate of the optimal, ignoring AUF (which adds 3/4). MGLS turns out to be fast in 2-gen, with a typical alg 11 moves.

If you're doing this in Petrus (pre-oriented edges), ELS is 2 moves. Not sure about ZB... But to me CLS+PLL seems like a fun, even way to spend my last 2 steps.

About newcomers: From now on, just tell them to learn MGLS. I could use recruits.