[WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic

[Kirjava]

I don't see how magics are not a puzzle. You have 3 rings, and you must link them. Now, if someone hasn't taught you how to do it, it could take you a while to work it out. Saying it's not a puzzle is stupid. Definition: Puzzle: A game, toy, or problem designed to test ingenuity or knowledge.

Even if you know how to do it, magics test your knowledge and see how fast you can do it.

The argument that magics and master magics are not puzzles is invalid.

Ok, serious answer;

No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle. You are simply performing an action you memorised.

 

[Specs112]

It brings the kids along and gives them something to do. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

It irks me how often this, or the other dead horse argument that it "doesn't take up that much time", gets brought up in Magic discussions.

As if saying that puts up a magic wall that allows you to ignore the obvious fact that it isn't even a puzzle.

 

[emolover]

Instead of having us do "solves" I think they should actually scramble your magic and have you get it to the "scrambled" or "solved" position.

Just a thought.

 

[garcijo]

The objective of an event is not entertaining children or ending fast.

 

[qqwref]

Magic has the potential to give speedcubing a bad image, more so the bigger it gets.

The only "bad image" I could see is that we have an event that seems to be intended for younger competitors. Older and more experienced people generally only compete in the event for the purposes of ranking/awards. So I don't see this as something to be embarrassed about.

People would have a lot of fun at an orgy at a competition,

I'm inclined to disagree; I think this would have a strong negative impact on the sum of the fun.

I'm talking about Magic/MasterMagic as an event. We do not treat it as a puzzle.

And that's my point. Nobody ever said that the event itself had to be a puzzle. Even in the WCA regulations, only the objects are referred to as puzzles. "Solve a T-perm" would be a valid event, with the puzzle in that case being the 3x3x3.

Besides, I feel like it's worth pointing out that outside of a cubing context many puzzles - probably most of them - are solved the same way every time. There are comparatively few puzzles out there where you can NOT get by by memorizing one move sequence.

(Extra clarification: in the sense used by most people in the world, Magic is a puzzle, even in the way we're doing it. It's not a twisty puzzle, but that's not a requirement to be used in cubing (see: Clock).)

If Magic were invented today, and did not have the "Rubik's" brand on it, it would never become an event.

IMO, what matters is that it already is an event - and already is popular. Removing a puzzle, and adding a puzzle, don't have the same magnitude of effect.

 

[Muesli]

It irks me how often this, or the other dead horse argument that it "doesn't take up that much time", gets brought up in Magic discussions.

As if saying that puts up a magic wall that allows you to ignore the obvious fact that it isn't even a puzzle.

So what?

 

[kinch2002]

It brings the kids along and gives them something to do. I don't see how this is a bad thing.

As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups

EDIT: I just realised I replied twice in separate posts to the same argument. Clearly I have too many reasons

 

[Muesli]

As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups

But magic's are already pretty rooted in the community, unlike the quintessential ball-in-cup. Removing them from competition is just extra work for very little pay off, if any.

 

[kinch2002]

But magic's are already pretty rooted in the community, unlike the quintessential ball-in-cup. Removing them from competition is just extra work for very little pay off, if any.

Then I refer you too my previous reply on the last page, which contained a suggestion that would require no extra work, apart from a deleting a couple of lines from the regs. And then running it unofficially would be less work than it normally is

 

[Kirjava]

The only "bad image" I could see is that we have an event that seems to be intended for younger competitors. Older and more experienced people generally only compete in the event for the purposes of ranking/awards. So I don't see this as something to be embarrassed about.

Magic is already something that many regard as a joke.

I'm inclined to disagree; I think this would have a strong negative impact on the sum of the fun.

Replace orgy with [insert fun activity here]. No need to ignore the point ^^.

And that's my point. Nobody ever said that the event itself had to be a puzzle. Even in the WCA regulations, only the objects are referred to as puzzles. "Solve a T-perm" would be a valid event, with the puzzle in that case being the 3x3x3.

Many people here are saying that it has to be a puzzle. We want puzzles to solve.

esides, I feel like it's worth pointing out that outside of a cubing context many puzzles - probably most of them - are solved the same way every time. There are comparatively few puzzles out there where you can NOT get by by memorizing one move sequence.

People would rather compete in twistypuzzles than ones where you need to memorise a single sequence.

IMO, what matters is that it already is an event - and already is popular. Removing a puzzle, and adding a puzzle, don't have the same magnitude of effect.

Yes. It is indeed a shame that it is starting to get late and Magic is hanging around. I'm hoping that we can get rid of it now, otherwise it's gonna be here forever

 

[JustinJ]

As Kir would say 'So would orgys'. But in all seriousness, there's better alternatives like providing some ball-in-a cups

You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new.

It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.

 

[Kirjava]

You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after, and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new.

http://speedcubing.com/results/

Maybe the WCA could even start an 'unofficial' section.

 

[Muesli]

Then I refer you too my previous reply on the last page, which contained a suggestion that would require no extra work, apart from a deleting a couple of lines from the regs. And then running it unofficially would be less work than it normally is

But surely that'd take some of the draw out of it? You can bring a unicycle to a cubing event if you like, but there's no point unless it feels like you're actually competing.

 

[Stefan]

No one competes in magic without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.

No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.

 

[Specs112]

keep magic i am teaching my friend to solve a 3x3 and he started with a magic also keep it because its my best event

That's not an argument.

You and everyone else here know it's much more fun to compete when you can look at your results after, and see your name up on the WCA page, especially if you're new.

It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.

Teach the "complaining younger sibling" to solve an actual cube then. It's not that hard.

 

[Muesli]

Teach the "complaining younger sibling" to solve an actual cube then. It's not that hard.

My girlfriend, amongst other people, can't be bothered. It takes some effort. Magic is a minute lesson.

 

[kinch2002]

My girlfriend, amongst other people, can't be bothered. It takes some effort. Magic is a minute lesson.

If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?

 

[Kirjava]

No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.

Once you know how to solve /Magic/ it is no longer a puzzle.

3x3x3 requires a new position to be solved the next time you do it.

 

[Muesli]

If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?

Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.

 

[Specs112]

No one competes in 3x3x3 without already knowing how to solve it.

Once you know how to solve it, it is no longer a puzzle.

Every Magic solve is literally exactly the same, since it's not scrambled. On ALL OTHER events, there is still a puzzle aspect of variety, and everything except Magic are things that one can improve at in ways other than pure hand movements.

One competes in Magic knowing one's exact solution. One competes in anything else knowing certain basic principles. Completely different.

If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?

This.