Switching Methods Progress Thread

[GuRoux]

Regarding Roux color neutrality:
I haven't heard of many fully color neutral Roux solvers. What I have heard of is using the same block color every time (ie always have the white side as your first block). I find that having the same bottom color is difficult to do every time because it really restricts you after you have built a square. And some people always use the exact same block (I think Waffo does). So I'm kinda stumped about this...any tips?

personally, I think you only really need 4 possible starting blocks to get a good solution every solve. I'm pretty sure waffo has many more than one, probably 8. Even with only 2 starting blocks for me, I am content with my first block building.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Being fully neutral with Roux would be useless. Even if you could build color filters for all of that, 15 seconds isn't long enough to inspect it. The benefit you get from being fully neutral instead of x2,y would be outweighed by lack of time to inspect and worse recognition.

 

[Kirjava]

Being fully neutral with Roux would be useless. Even if you could build color filters for all of that, 15 seconds isn't long enough to inspect it. The benefit you get from being fully neutral instead of x2,y would be outweighed by lack of time to inspect and worse recognition.

You don't use 15 seconds to check 24 different blocks just like you don't use 15 seconds to check all 6 crosses.

I can see what blocks are good at a glance without being CN, it doesn't add overhead to inspection time. In fact, better overall cases could mean it lowers inspection time.

If you are CN, the recognition isn't "worse".

Please don't spout ill advised untruths when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

You don't use 15 seconds to check 24 different blocks just like you don't use 15 seconds to check all 6 crosses.

I can see what blocks are good at a glance without being CN, it doesn't add overhead to inspection time. In fact, better overall cases could mean it lowers inspection time.

If you are CN, the recognition isn't "worse".

Please don't spout ill advised untruths when you don't know what you're talking about.

Recognition is absolutely worse if you're color neutral. How can you deny that? If you've cubed a ton, you can get used to it, but you have a much, much shallower learning curve. Many very accomplished cubers find that being fully neutral isn't always advantageous. Jayden Mcneill switched from CN to white/yellow with Yau and instantly broke all his PBs. As far as I know, the best Roux solvers aren't color neutral either. I can concede the point about finding a block during inspection time potentially being easier when you're color neutral, but I've heard way too many Roux solvers complain about CMLL and L6E recognition when CN to believe that recognition is not hindered by being color neutral.

 

[Kirjava]

Recognition is absolutely worse if you're color neutral. How can you deny that?

Because by definition CN means that you have no recognition problems with using other colours.

Try thinking of it as more of an attribute you have rather than a technique you employ.

Many very accomplished cubers find that being fully neutral isn't always advantageous.

I didn't say it was. Please look at this thread I made on colour neutrality and educate yourself on the subject.

Jayden Mcneill switched from CN to white/yellow with Yau and instantly broke all his PBs. As far as I know, the best Roux solvers aren't color neutral either.

None of this means anything.

I've heard way too many Roux solvers complain about CMLL and L6E recognition when CN to believe that recognition is not hindered by being color neutral.

Of course it's harder to solve with random colours if you cannot solve CN. However, recognition is not worse if you attain the attribute. Once you aquire CN properly, there is no hindrance.

What you're saying is like saying that CLL recognition is harder than OLL recognition if you don't know CLL recognition.

Also, any decent Roux solver will tell you that applying CN to CMLL and LSE is easy compared to F2B.

Like I said before, it's better to not post on something when you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Because by definition CN means that you have no recognition problems with using other colours.

Try thinking of it as more of an attribute you have rather than a technique you employ.

Being color neutral doesn't mean you have no recognition problems. You can be a color neutral solver who has mediocre recognition with all colors. It doesn't mean you don't have recognition problems; it means that you suck the same amount with each color.

None of this means anything.

Yes it does. The point I was making with Jay Mcneill is that despite previously being fully CN, his recognition instantly improved when he reduced the number of colors he was looking for from 6 to 2. And that doesn't support your assertion that being CN doesn't hinder recognition.

 

[Kirjava]

Being color neutral doesn't mean you have no recognition problems. You can be a color neutral solver who has mediocre recognition with all colors. It doesn't mean you don't have recognition problems; it means that you suck the same amount with each color.

What are you trying to say? This has nothing to do with CN vs non CN.

Yes it does. The point I was making with Jay Mcneill is that despite previously being fully CN, his recognition instantly improved when he reduced the number of colors he was looking for from 6 to 2. And that doesn't support your assertion that being CN doesn't hinder recognition.

You can solve with no bias towards certain colours and not be colour neutral. I can do it. I can solve starting with any colours I like. If I suddenly switch to colours I like I'll be instantly faster. This proves nothing. Being CN doesn't hinder recognition by definition. This is not something you can dispute.

The best Roux solvers not being colour neutral doesn't mean anything either. This is happenstance, best practise doesn't dictate how thinks actually pan out.

 

[jeff081692]

Being color neutral doesn't mean you have no recognition problems. You can be a color neutral solver who has mediocre recognition with all colors. It doesn't mean you don't have recognition problems; it means that you suck the same amount with each color.

Sucking the same amount with each color means you don't have problems with using other colors since all colors are equally bad thus being true CN. You argued a point for recognition in general and not across colors which is what Kirjava was specifically pointing out.

And for the guy that went from CN down to 2 colors. Switching from 6 to 2 hinders recognition across colors but increases recognition for the 2 that were kept. In the short term this means being faster. In the long term this means maybe some opportunities of the other 4 colors were missed and this was the opportunity cost.

Anyway I am thinking about learning Roux and I will give CN a shot but I am so far into Fridrich that I don't see myself completely switching so it doesn't matter if CN hinders recognition or not because it will be completely for fun unless I end up getting fast.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Kirjava stated that "being CN doesn't cause recognition issues," and the point I was making is that even if you don't have a color bias, you'll be a lot slower to learn to filter 6 colors instead of 2. Even if you're neutral, your learning will be slower with the 6. And yes, if you only use 2 colors your recognition will be worse with the other 4, but that doesn't matter because obviously, you only use the two that you're good with. But this debate is for a different thread, and Kir knows way more about cubing than me, so there probably is something that I'm just not experienced enough to get all the way. Let's ditch the question of whether or not being CN is worth it or not, for now.

Jeff, I assume you're CN with CFOP? If so, it'll be really interesting hearing your experience attempting it with Roux.

 

[Evan Wright]

switched from reduction to yau. now i'm finally at the same times as reduction and i beat my pb single too!!

 

[jeff081692]

I am not CN with CFOP. I only solve blue and green. But I figure learning a new method would obviously be slower in the start so I might as well be CN when doing it since in a way I am a beginner again so I don't have to feel bias towards a certain color if I start with all of them. I honestly know nothing about Roux at this point and was reading about whether CN with Roux was worth it or why it can be harder to do but I am just going to do it and see what happens.
I will still be practicing CFOP because I am closing in on sub 10 (11.95 avg 12) but once I do that I might try to get Roux sub 10 if I like it enough. And if that happens there is a good chance I will stay with Roux.
But yea I will post here any updates I have with my Roux experience. Maybe I will even make some videos so I can watch myself go from beginner to wherever I end up.

 

[ILMZS20]

i switched from yau to hoya on 4x4. i already got a 1:14.xx avg of 5 with hoya which is pretty much my yau average (after 3 days with hoya) and i see more potential of improving more than i did with yau. i almost got a sub 1 single aswell, but messed up last layer. my pb is still like 1:05 but with hoya i really think i can get sub 1 single soon. its also way more fun than yau.

 

[Kirjava]

Kirjava stated that "being CN doesn't cause recognition issues," and the point I was making is that even if you don't have a color bias, you'll be a lot slower to learn to filter 6 colors instead of 2. Even if you're neutral, your learning will be slower with the 6.

You originally just stated that CN gives 'worse recognition' as a method to give weight to the 'colour neutral on Roux would be useless' argument.

This is nothing to do with that and is of questionable authenticity.

 

[jeff081692]

So after doing a few first block solves I realize that if I were CN with Fridrich it would be easier to be CN with Roux. This is probably only because I am inefficient and insert my pairs using fridrich like algs when in every example/tutorial they are utilizing the M slice but for now I am just ok with being able to do it and will work on that later after I learn the rest of the method. But seeing a pair and trying to instantly add it to a 1x2x2 is developing my CN recognition and I went back and did some fridrich CN solves and had a much easier time looking ahead because I could recognize the corner edge pairs better. So CN with Roux is actually making me feel more confident in CN with Fridrich.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

i switched from yau to hoya on 4x4. i already got a 1:14.xx avg of 5 with hoya which is pretty much my yau average (after 3 days with hoya) and i see more potential of improving more than i did with yau. i almost got a sub 1 single aswell, but messed up last layer. my pb is still like 1:05 but with hoya i really think i can get sub 1 single soon. its also way more fun than yau.

It's awesome to see someone as fast as you doing something other than yau or reduction.

 

[tseitsei]

It's awesome to see someone as fast as you doing something other than yau or reduction.

 

[ILMZS20]

It's awesome to see someone as fast as you doing something other than yau or reduction.

nah im not that fast

 

[jeff081692]

Been about a week trying out Roux and it's a fun method. I still want to reach my limit with Fridrich before doing nothing but Roux but I like it so much that I will set aside a little time each day to do some practice. Got a 34.71 single and a 56.55 avg 12. Recognition is a lot more manageable and I can find what I am looking for relatively quickly but still not at a point where I could look ahead. I still haven't decided if I want to give CN with Fridrich another try but I have put in enough practice to where I am not terribly awful with any color. And lookahead with Fridrich feels so much more easier after stretching my brain trying to make efficient blocks quickly. I guess my goal for now is sub 20 with Roux and sub 10 with Fridrich.

 

[NZCuber]

It's awesome to see someone as fast as you doing something other than yau or reduction.

I was thinking of changing to hoya but then the center pieces in my lame rubik's brand 4x4but then it's center pieces broke. Still waiting on a new one.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

I had barely practiced Roux at all for a while, and then I tried it again today and was faster for no apparent reason.