Should stickerless cubes be allowed in WCA competition?

[MaeLSTRoM]

...If there was some way to remove that, but still keeping the cube stickerless, you may be able to pull the wool over the eyes of the WCA

That's probably not the wording you want. There are cubes like this out there.

And I think stickerless cubes SHOULD be allowed. I heard that the face colour on the inside creates confusion with +2 and possibly DNF. How could you be confused by two colours of plastic?! You can clearly see by the rotation of the layer whether or not it is over a 45° angle. Can someone please give me a legitimate reason why stickerless cubes should not be allowed? Unless I'm missing something, then the whole thing seems kinda ridiculous.

It's not necessarily ridiculous. It does potentially give an advantage that can be used, just like putting specific marks on stickers so that you know which is which, and that is also not allowed. Really, they shouldn't have been allowed in competition to begin with and then this would never be an argument.

 

[Noahaha]

These are the arguments I have seen for allowing stickerless cubes:

1. There's no REAL advantage
2. Even if there is an advantage, it would be an advantage for everyone
3. People want it

Now, let's see what happens when we apply these arguments to something else that is not allowed: listening to music during solving

1. There's no REAL advantage since it doesn't affect how you do the solves
- While this is true for people who listen to music, it is not true for people who listen to instructions on how to solve a cube or during BLD listening to a friend telling them where the stickers are.
-> In the same way, the majority of people who would use stickerless cubes wouldn't take an unfair advantage, but there could be people who abuse it.

2. Even if listening to music is an advantage, it's an advantage for everyone.
- Not true since the people who don't have music to listen to or the right music to listen to would not receive the advantage.
-> If stickerless cubes evolve to the point where they give a distinct advantage, what happens to the people who don't want to use them?

3. People want to listen to music.
- Too bad, it's unfair.
-> Too bad, stickerless cubes are unfair.

I think most people agree that listening to music should not be allowed, and although it is harder to see, the same exact reasons prevent stickerless cubes from being allowed.


Finally, what I think most people here aren't quite grasping is the fact that it is not necessarily about banning the stickerless dayan cubes. It is about drawing a line. We need somewhere to say "this is allowed and that is not" and it just happens that drawing it at stickerless cubes is the most logical place. If we allow stickerless cubes, someone will surely come out with a way to exploit this so that it creates a bigger advantage than is already there.

 

[MorrisKid101]

That's probably not the wording you want. There are cubes like this out there.



It's not necessarily ridiculous. It does potentially give an advantage that can be used, just like putting specific marks on stickers so that you know which is which, and that is also not allowed. Really, they shouldn't have been allowed in competition to begin with and then this would never be an argument.

You raise some good points, but when you say they should never have been allowed, does that mean they were allowed once? Sorry, I'm quite new to speedcubing, so I'm not sure about past regulations

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

You raise some good points, but when you say they should never have been allowed, does that mean they were allowed once? Sorry, I'm quite new to speedcubing, so I'm not sure about past regulations

When they first came about they weren't banned. After some time it was pointed out that the colours on the angle of turn can be used to see more than is allowed for a comp-legal cube so they were banned, except from BLD events. It then remained like this for a while with some discussion about it going on, and then they were totally banned.
People seem to be annoyed because they were allowed for a time and then banned, but really they shouldn't have been legal to begin with.

 

[~Adam~]

I would like to think that if Dayan released their cubes in a variation like this Cube4You tiled cube then people would just drop the subject.
I doubt it though due to the perpetuation of the confirmation bias that stickless cubes are better than the black and white ones.

 

[Vincents]

The WRC's mission, in my mind, is to promote fairness in competition.

A by-product goal is to standardize practices and regulations. Each person's WCA page should have a list of their accomplishments, achieved under the same conditions as everyone else.

I don't think I would be remiss in conjecturing that only those who feel most strongly against the status quo would feel the need to enter this thread and vote/post - others on the other side of the argument might post once or twice, and lose interest (because there simply isn't anything for them to care enough about, right now).

I want to note that while in this specific thread, a plurality of you are for stickerless cubes being allowed in competition, you are a small part of a skewed sample. The worldwide community is much larger than Speedsolving.com. Speedsolving.com is much larger than the people who still feel strongly enough about this topic to post in this thread. Speedsolving.com is missing, for one thing, many of the Delegates who represent and/or speak for areas of the world where English is not considered the predominant lingua franca. I'm not advocating that you do this at your next competition, but I would also conjecture that if you asked your local delegate for an opinion (and s/he gave one to you), it would probably be against the use of stickerless cubes in competition - and they could tell you why.

The WRC does value community input, in that it gives us a great idea of what the current state of the sport is and can inform or guide future policy. Please try to remember that there are many communities out there, and one thread on Speedsolving.com is not a representative sample of what the cubing community as a whole feels.

 

[Clarkeeyyy]

1. There's no REAL advantage since it doesn't affect how you do the solves
- While this is true for people who listen to music, it is not true for people who listen to instructions on how to solve a cube or during BLD listening to a friend telling them where the stickers are.

This annoys me so much. I understand exactly why it is banned and I know nothing will change that it the near future but it is such a pain in the butt.

 

[LarryLunchmeat]

So then why is stickerless legal in blindfolding??
During inspection/memorization, you can see more of the puzzle than you can on a stickered cube so technically that is an advantage.

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

So then why is stickerless legal in blindfolding??
During inspection/memorization, you can see more of the puzzle than you can on a stickered cube so technically that is an advantage.

It isn't.
They're banned in all events.

 

[Pyjam]

The worldwide community is much larger than Speedsolving.com.

Larger, yes. Much larger, I don't know.
WCA has 21743 members who's doing 3x3x3 : http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php#most_persons
Speedsolving has 17415 members : http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/memberlist.php

However, I see your point.

 

[TMOY]

I want to note that while in this specific thread, a plurality of you are for stickerless cubes being allowed in competition, you are a small part of a skewed sample. The worldwide community is much larger than Speedsolving.com. Speedsolving.com is much larger than the people who still feel strongly enough about this topic to post in this thread. Speedsolving.com is missing, for one thing, many of the Delegates who represent and/or speak for areas of the world where English is not considered the predominant lingua franca. I'm not advocating that you do this at your next competition, but I would also conjecture that if you asked your local delegate for an opinion (and s/he gave one to you), it would probably be against the use of stickerless cubes in competition - and they could tell you why.

Oh no, not that stupid "silent majority" argument again. Since people don't say anything, they must all agree with you. Sure.

Don't you think there are other reasons for people to keep their mouth shut ? Because they simply don't read that kind of threads, for example ? Or because they lack the necessary self-confidence to fight abainst the big mouths of the forum ? Or because they're simply tired of fighting against windmills for the Nth time ?

 

[qqwref]

The WRC's mission, in my mind, is to promote fairness in competition.

Nobody is suggesting allowing stickerless cubes even though they think the cubes are unfair. People are suggesting allowing stickerless cubes specifically because they don't think the cubes are unfair. By bring up this point you imply that people disagree with you, but that's not true at all.

I don't think I would be remiss in conjecturing that only those who feel most strongly against the status quo would feel the need to enter this thread and vote/post - others on the other side of the argument might post once or twice, and lose interest (because there simply isn't anything for them to care enough about, right now).

I want to note that while in this specific thread, a plurality of you are for stickerless cubes being allowed in competition, you are a small part of a skewed sample.

Sure, but: (a) Who knows what everyone in the world thinks? Nobody. (b) The point of threads like this is to discuss the arguments for and against, not to try to determine what percent of people want stickerless cubes to be allowed in competition.

 

[Vincents]

Nobody is suggesting allowing stickerless cubes even though they think the cubes are unfair. People are suggesting allowing stickerless cubes specifically because they don't think the cubes are unfair. By bring up this point you imply that people disagree with you, but that's not true at all.


Sure, but: (a) Who knows what everyone in the world thinks? Nobody. (b) The point of threads like this is to discuss the arguments for and against, not to try to determine what percent of people want stickerless cubes to be allowed in competition.

I was not intending to argue a certain position regarding the stickerless cubes proposition in my first bit. I was simply trying to communicate how I approach all debates in this arena, in the hopes that people can better understand where I'm coming from. If it better informs people and allows them to make more effective arguments (on both sides), my mission has been accomplished.

The other bit is simply to counterbalance an implication that the WRC has stopped caring about community input. That's not true. While we do consider community input, my point is that Speedsolving.com is not the only piece of the community we listen to.

I make no assumptions about the motivations of people with regards to whether they post here, TMOY. I only state that this thread is probably not a representative sample of the community - why that is is open for debate; I've simply offered one or two possibilities that may be completely wrong.

In conclusion, I'm not arguing for or against either side - I simply am attempting to inform regarding my position. I might conjecture, but I give little or no credence to hypotheses unless offered supporting evidence. Please refrain from misrepresenting my post(s) as such.

 

[elrog]

Larger, yes. Much larger, I don't know.
WCA has 21743 members who's doing 3x3x3 : http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/results/statistics.php#most_persons
Speedsolving has 17415 members : http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/memberlist.php

However, I see your point.

According to your statistics, this represents about 80% of the world wide speedcubing community. Oh, and by the way, only 380 people have voted. That gives me about 1.7%.

 

[Bob]

According to your statistics, this represents about 80% of the world wide speedcubing community. Oh, and by the way, only 380 people have voted. That gives me about 1.7%.

Not true. You are making two (very wrong) assumptions:
1) All of Speedsolving.com's members are members of the WCA
2) The world wide speedcubing community is only those who have competed officially

 

[elrog]

I understand that my numbers are not all that accurate either, but with so many variables it is impossible to get an exact answer. This is the same reason weight loss programs don't work. There are to many variables in a persons metabolic rate and such to know exactly how to make them lose weight the easiest way they possibly can. Even though my numbers are not accurate, I think it should get Vincents point across that this isn't an accurate representation of the world wide speedsolving community.

Both of your points include a larger group even than what Pyjam said even further proving my point how little 380 is. You may also want to include the fact though that he took all of speedsolving.coms members, yet only the 3x3 solvers from the WCA. As I said earlier, theres just to many variables.

 

[Pyjam]

It's a poll not a referendum. The idea is to get the temperature.

Be honest. If there was 60% of no, I would have said : OK, people don't want them.
Here, we have two yes for one no.

 

[applemobile]

Not true. You are making two (very wrong) assumptions:
1) All of Speedsolving.com's members are members of the WCA
2) The world wide speedcubing community is only those who have competed officially

3) Every member only has one account.

 

[Kirjava]

3) Every member only has one account.

I assume the amount of people with more than one account is minimal.

 

[~Adam~]

I seem to remember voting yes almost 3 years ago. I have changed my mind to a firm no now after reading both sides.

IMO, as I have previously stated, you are more likely to vote if you are going to vote yes and I also think that a lot of people vote yes before they know why they are not allowed.