Should stickerless cubes be allowed in WCA competition?

[kunparekh18]

the fact that you can see the reflection of a fluorescent sticker on your fingers when it's on the backside of a cube, which to me, is the exact same thing as peeking over a cube to see a fragment of colour on the backside.:fp

That's not the main reason why stickerless cubes are not allowed.

 

[Rnewms]

This is actually the main reason I want no part of a WCA event. I'm a stickerless cube user and until they allow stickerless cubes into WCA events, they won't get a dime from me.

WCA is nonprofit; keep your dimes.

 

[Noahaha]

WCA is nonprofit; keep your dimes.

Beat me to it.

Don't complain about an organization that doesn't want your money and is next to free to take part in.

Every sport has its rules, and those rules will ALWAYS favor some people over others, and there will ALWAYS be seemingly unfair rules meant to keep the integrity of the game intact. Just look at golf... you can be penalized horrifically for something that objectively speaking doesn't matter in the slightest. The best we can do is argue about the rules and make our opinions heard, and I doubt the board (note that all of us are part of the WCA) will listen to someone who would rather boycott a rule than try to change it.

 

[jayefbe]

Beat me to it.

Don't complain about an organization that doesn't want your money and is next to free to take part in.

Every sport has its rules, and those rules will ALWAYS favor some people over others, and there will ALWAYS be seemingly unfair rules meant to keep the integrity of the game intact. Just look at golf... you can be penalized horrifically for something that objectively speaking doesn't matter in the slightest. The best we can do is argue about the rules and make our opinions heard, and I doubt the board (note that all of us are part of the WCA) will listen to someone who would rather boycott a rule than try to change it.

Exactly. Without rules that are strictly enforced, it is impossible to ensure that results are comparable from one competition to another. Unfortunately, strictly defined rules will seem arbitrary at times. But it's either seemingly arbitrary rules that are strictly enforced, or vague rules that may vary from one competition to another, making it difficult to maintain a consistent and accurate competitive environment. Every competitive event will have it's "stickerless cubes". Just recognize that if it wasn't stickerless cubes, it would be something else that everyone complained about. Get over it.

 

[TMOY]

For the sake of consistency, I think the width for tiles needs to be smaller. I see a lot of megaminxes where you can see sides you shouldn't be able to because of the sides of the tiles. I can see this being taken advantage of (subconsciously or consciously) especially on a puzzle where lookahead is so difficult.

Megaminx is a bad example. Even with a stickered puzzle, you are already able to see 6 sides at a time, which is more than enough info tor speedsolving purposes, seeing more really doesn't help.

 

[cxinlee]

Megaminx is a bad example. Even with a stickered puzzle, you are already able to see 6 sides at a time, which is more than enough info tor speedsolving purposes, seeing more really doesn't help.

But someone who has an unbelievable brain could use it to his/her advantage.

 

[qqwref]

But it's either seemingly arbitrary rules that are strictly enforced, or vague rules that may vary from one competition to another

I disagree. I think the choice is between "unambiguous rules that follow our intuition about what is reasonable to allow" and "unambiguous rules that don't". Which is why we have debates like this. The WCA is supposed to make decisions based on community input, which means we don't *have* to settle for having bad rules.


Anyway, I wonder, if we allow stickerless cubes, will fast people be forced to switch to stickerless cubes to remain competitive? Is it really enough of an advantage to matter, or is it an advantage on the same level as a really good brand of cube?

 

[TMOY]

But someone who has an unbelievable brain could use it to his/her advantage.

Somebody with an unbelievable brain can find lots of ways of cheating nobody else can think of anyway.

 

[cxinlee]

Somebody with an unbelievable brain can find lots of ways of cheating nobody else can think of anyway.

Thus, more and more rules are being made to prevent cheating.

 

[Petro Leum]

IMO, all that "unfair advantage, faster cubes, visible stuff BLAH BLAH" is complete BS.

The reason why they should be allowed is because it gets rid of those nasty stickers, I really hate them.

 

[JohanAR]

But if the benefit is really obvious, then considering it's not at all a popular type of stickering, we should forbid it so everyone doesn't have to switch in order to have a chance. The advantages of stickerless cubes are nowhere near as clear, and they are very popular, so forbidding them may essentially do more harm than good by preventing many people from using their best cube in competition.

And this is one of the points I'm trying to argue; If stickless cubes are allowed and provide an ever so slight advantage, a lot of people would feel that they have to switch to a stickerless cube. I agree that the it's not as clear if stickerless cubes will bring faster times, though Kirjava wrote that they gave him a significant benefit when using Roux.

Anyway, I wonder, if we allow stickerless cubes, will fast people be forced to switch to stickerless cubes to remain competitive? Is it really enough of an advantage to matter, or is it an advantage on the same level as a really good brand of cube?

Competitions aren't only about fast people. Average people and beginners want to be as fast as they can too..

To the second point, a good speedcube let's say a Zhanchi, is an improvement of the old Rubik's Cube. The Zhanchi can do exactly the same things as the Rubik's, except better. However, it doesn't do new things.

An (obviously exaggerated) analogy is that in a cycling competition, you are allowed to bring the best bike money can buy you, but you're not allowed to put a motor on it. One can argue that a moped is an improved bicycle and debate if it really brings an advantage (I think mopeds are speed limited to 35km/h here nowadays, a speed which is easily attainable with a good bike) but the deciding factor will be that the moped has an additional feature - a motor - that bicycles traditionally don't have.

Well that's not a very helpful response, now, is it?

I'm pretty sure the post I replied to was intended as a joke..

changing stickers in 37 cubes for multiblindfold before competition is a terrible thing.

Stickerless cubes should IMO be allowed in all blind events, because if you can't see the cube while solving they're no different from a regular Rubik's Cube.

I think the problem here is that it is not about benefit, but potential benefit

Finally, someone who seems to agree with me

 

[jayefbe]

I disagree. I think the choice is between "unambiguous rules that follow our intuition about what is reasonable to allow" and "unambiguous rules that don't". Which is why we have debates like this. The WCA is supposed to make decisions based on community input, which means we don't *have* to settle for having bad rules.


Anyway, I wonder, if we allow stickerless cubes, will fast people be forced to switch to stickerless cubes to remain competitive? Is it really enough of an advantage to matter, or is it an advantage on the same level as a really good brand of cube?

What's your solution? At what point should the line be drawn? This is currently being debated as "should stickerless be allowed or not", when I think the real question is "what cubes should be allowed, and what shouldn't". Right now, it basically comes down to stickered vs stickerless, but that may not always be the case. There has to be a line drawn somewhere, and ultimately some portion of the population will find it to be fairly arbitrary. I personally feel that stickerless cubes is a decent place to draw the line. While my gut feeling is that stickerless cubes don't give a significant advantage to the cuber, I think drawing the line at stickerless cubes prevents people from having to differentiate between stickerless vs stickered results or arguing over whether or not records from one is more valid than the other. Clearly stickerless do provide something that stickered cubes don't.

Part of the reason why I think it's reasonable to keep stickerless out of competitions, is that allowing them will force people to make that decision between stickerless or stickered cubes. Plus, if a bunch of WRs are broken, it will be questioned whether that is due purely to the cuber's talent or partially due to these newly legal cubes.

 

[BaMiao]

Just my 2 cents:

From a purely pragmatic sense, there has to be a line drawn in the regulations somewhere. Banning stickerless cubes is a natural point to draw the line, because it does offer a clear, distinct advantage (being able to see colors that were not seen in the original rubik's cube).

Now, I doubt it would have any noticeable effect on cube times in the immediate future, but that may only be because we are not practiced at using this advantage. With practice, you might be able to work it in to your lookahead (for example, you might learn to spot the BL and BR colors mid-U move).

And besides- no one makes stickerless cubes with hot pink. My daughter would be devastated if I couldn't use my hot pink stickers

 

[cxinlee]

The reason why they should be allowed is because it gets rid of those nasty stickers, I really hate them.

What about tiles?

 

[Pyjam]

Just my 2 cents:

From a purely pragmatic sense, there has to be a line drawn in the regulations somewhere. Banning stickerless cubes is a natural point to draw the line, because it does offer a clear, distinct advantage (being able to see colors that were not seen in the original rubik's cube).

And for the worn stickers? Stickers with marks give illegal information too. Where's the line?
If the stickers weren't allowed, the line would be clear.

 

[BaMiao]

And for the worn stickers? Stickers with marks give illegal information too. Where's the line?
If the stickers weren't allowed, the line would be clear.

My understanding (haven't been to a comp yet) is that a ruling on worn stickers is up to the discretion of the judge. I agree that this is not ideal. However, I think you have to compare the advantages of a cube to how the original puzzle (rubik's brand) was solved, and the rubik's brand had stickers.

And before you jump in with the lube/improved cube argument- these advantages didn't fundamentally change the way the puzzle was solved. They only make it possible to turn faster. The argument could be made that seeing more colors on the cube at one time has the potential to change the act of solving in a more fundamental way. You may disagree, but that is my reasoning.

 

[cxinlee]

I personally think that the rule should stand. If stickerless cubes were allowed, everyone would be pressured to buy a stickerless cube to make things fair. Thus, those who cannot get them due to monetary or other reasons might unfairly get slower times than others.

 

[Petro Leum]

What about tiles?

i have a cube with tiles, they suck. slippery, make your cube bigger, get really sharp corners when they break a littlebit....

 

[JohanAR]

And for the worn stickers? Stickers with marks give illegal information too. Where's the line?
If the stickers weren't allowed, the line would be clear.

But they are already banned, so what are you trying to argue?

 

[Pyjam]

But they are already banned, so what are you trying to argue?

THIS :

My understanding (haven't been to a comp yet) is that a ruling on worn stickers is up to the discretion of the judge.