Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

[PeelingStickers]

At the end of the day, if a female cuber really does want to be the best in the world, they are not gonna be aiming for #1 on the female cubers list - they want to be the top cuber on the planet. This person would practice the cube for many many hours, learn new algorithms and ways to improve to become world class. This is why I feel the argument "They (The FC's) will become demotivated by seeing themselves ranked highly on the FC list and think that that is enough". is flawed.

 

[Dene]

I think everyone here is underestimating the benefit this ranking would provide to new female cubers. In fact, the benefit it would give to existing, already fast female cubers is secondary in my mind.

It is important for new, young cubers to have role models to use for inspiration. It is especially important when it comes to sustaining continued interest. For young girls, it is natural to look to other girls for inspiration, and at the moment they are few and far between. The ranking would show girls just getting into cubing that there are other girls out there with the same interest.

I think most people here know what it is like to walk in a room and instantly feel that they don't belong. Showing up to a competition and seeing 90% boys adds to the intimidation already inherent in the competition environment. I wouldn't be surprised if we could show that girls drop out of cubing faster than boys do (which seems to happen in chess). I think giving exposure to the fastest female cubers would help somewhat.

As for comparisons to things like race- there's no reason not to do something that can benefit people just because we don't also do something else that is superficially similar. There are many differences, besides, between gender and race that I don't feel like going into.

Two things:
1) This is why having prominent female figures (e.g. Sarah Strong or Emily Wang) is important, but not necessarily why having the list would be useful.
2) Every argument put forward for having the list also applies to race (except the "we already have the data" argument). Of course there are differences, but are there any relevant differences that apply to the arguments presented so far?

 

[rowan]

Two things:
1) This is why having prominent female figures (e.g. Sarah Strong or Emily Wang) is important, but not necessarily why having the list would be useful.
2) Every argument put forward for having the list also applies to race (except the "we already have the data" argument). Of course there are differences, but are there any relevant differences that apply to the arguments presented so far?

I mean, logistically it would be much more difficult to implement a race list. Not that this is necessarily an argument for it not to be there, but it would require recollecting information from every cuber, some of whom are probably no longer active, and a change in the WCA regulations. I don't want to argue for this because I don't know how true it is or whether or not black cubers would appreciate something like this; I can't comment on those experiences because I'm not black. Main difference being there isn't a call for it. If black cubers made a thread saying, "I want this" and explained how it would help them, I would probably agree it's important. Who am I to say what is or isn't good for a group I don't know the experiences of?

I don't think simply because someone personally hasn't looked at the WCA doesn't mean that other new cubers don't. If you google Rubik's cube rankings, it's the first list to show up. I think it's reasonable that a new cuber might have interest in how fast a Rubik's cube is being solved right now. Maybe even out of curiosity. I agree, prominent female figures in the cubing community are important, but how would people know about them unless they involved themselves with the community? Should we just have a little thing that's like, "Hey, there are some female cubers here." Because that just doesn't seem as fair as a regular drop-down sorting list. Unless we would determine who is a prominent female cuber based on their speeds, in which case the list still makes sense.

The unofficial website does not show up in the google search for rankings like I've said before. If you want to encourage new FCs by showing them others, that website is a poor place to do it. People would have to make a conscious effort to talk about this frequently. It is not well known enough outside of the already existing community of cubers. Even if you said oh, it's the iWCA, that still isn't in the first couple of pages in the google search for iWCA. Also someone mentioned the website is glitchy. New cubers would have to see someone post the link. I haven't seen the link in popular cubing youtube descriptions, cubing groups on FB, or in other threads up until this one. Is there a better idea for exposure other than a sorting for top female cubers? I do not think this website provides good exposure at all.

Also, once again, the board is talking about this and taking it into consideration, so maybe it is in the "spirit" of the WCA. They haven't made any official comments on that point, so I'm not sure where you got that idea. The goal is to have more people compete, if this helps more women compete, it's in line with their goal. I've made the argument for why I think it would encourage women 5+ times and so have others.

 

[bran]

How would having a different list for females help more females compete? There's a different list on the WCA website for Pakistani cubers and even with a population of 180 million there's still only 3 registered cubers (and 2 more that I know of). So I can't see how it promotes cubing among women and it would be great if you could explain that with sound reasoning.
Ps English isn't my first language so I might have explained my argument a bit poorly

 

[Hays]

Well now that this thread has died down a bit I guess I'll ad my two cents.

Generally, I don't really see the necessity for female rankings to be easily available on the WCA website and would be opposed to it simply so we don't have clutter do to too many arbitrary stats.

But, since so many people are pushing for it and saying that a gender ranking system would benefit the community, I would say that it's perfectly fine to a ranking system to the WCA sit. If one is to be implemented however, it belongs in either the "statistics" or "misc" sections, and should definitely not grand the title of "WR/CR/NR" for being at the top of the rankings.

It doesn't belong on the main rankings page and shouldn't grant real records as this would devalue the current records that have been set regardless of gender. People work incredibly hard to be at the top of the world rankings, and seeing someone else with a "world record" who has obviously not been up against the same competition would reduce the value and satisfaction of achieving a world record.

It's fine to have the rankings available, but since there is no known discrepancy between male and female cubers, it should be seen only as a fun statistic and no more.

 

[Cool Frog]

blahblahblah

Since this thread was revived, where did anyone argue for the addition of female WR/NR? It certainly belongs on the main rankings page as the purpose of putting it there is accessibility. The fact of the matter is, there is already a ranking among female cubers, there is just a problem of easy access to this information. The addition of this sorting option make WR no less valid than they are now.

As a small aside, If you didn't read this thread or the arguments presented, please don't post as your "contribution" or "opinion" has probably already been addressed.

 

[Hays]

Since this thread was revived, where did anyone argue for the addition of female WR/NR? It certainly belongs on the main rankings page as the purpose of putting it there is accessibility. The fact of the matter is, there is already a ranking among female cubers, there is just a problem of easy access to this information. The addition of this sorting option make WR no less valid than they are now.

As a small aside, If you didn't read this thread or the arguments presented, please don't post as your "contribution" or "opinion" has probably already been addressed.

Thank you for reminding me why I hardly ever post in this forum.

anyway, the point of my post was to simply give my opinion about the entire issue of adding a gender based ranking system, and the topic of gender based "WR/NR/CR" has come up so I don't think my comments are out of place. Unlike so many people on this forum, I don't post for the sole purpose of arguing.

As you said, the main issue is accessibility of the rankings, not their existence. While they may not see nearly as much traffic as the main rankings page, the "Statistics" or "Misc" page is just as easy to access, and is the proper spot for gender rankings. The rankings page should be reserved for "serious" rankings - ones that are representative of World, Continental, or National records.

Obviously even with a new sorting option, world records are still 100% "valid." But as someone that has firsthand experience of the countless hours of practice it takes to make it to the top of the rankings page, I'm saying that having gender based rankings on the main rankings page does make the "serious" rankings less special. Being on the top of the main rankings page should be reserved for those with legitimate World, Continental, or National records.

Additionally I did read this entire thread and the arguments in it, and I did not see too much clear discussion about my concerns. I also did not see any comments from any other "world class" cubers about what they would think of gender rankings alongside the main ones and thought that my ideas were valid since they were from a different perspective.

 

[uberCuber]

I'm with Hays on this. I do not agree with this being added to the main rankings page. This whole time I have assumed the intention was for it to be put on the misc page, which is where I think it should be. The main rankings page is for lists that actually grant real records.

 

[rowan]

Thank you for reminding me why I hardly ever post in this forum.

anyway, the point of my post was to simply give my opinion about the entire issue of adding a gender based ranking system, and the topic of gender based "WR/NR/CR" has come up so I don't think my comments are out of place. Unlike so many people on this forum, I don't post for the sole purpose of arguing.

As you said, the main issue is accessibility of the rankings, not their existence. While they may not see nearly as much traffic as the main rankings page, the "Statistics" or "Misc" page is just as easy to access, and is the proper spot for gender rankings. The rankings page should be reserved for "serious" rankings - ones that are representative of World, Continental, or National records.

Obviously even with a new sorting option, world records are still 100% "valid." But as someone that has firsthand experience of the countless hours of practice it takes to make it to the top of the rankings page, I'm saying that having gender based rankings on the main rankings page does make the "serious" rankings less special. Being on the top of the main rankings page should be reserved for those with legitimate World, Continental, or National records.

Additionally I did read this entire thread and the arguments in it, and I did not see too much clear discussion about my concerns. I also did not see any comments from any other "world class" cubers about what they would think of gender rankings alongside the main ones and thought that my ideas were valid since they were from a different perspective.

I'm inclined to agree with this. The misc or stats page is probably the best place to put gender sorting since separate WR/CR/NRs are not going to exist. I guess we'll see what the WCA board and delegates think is the most appropriate place for this sort of listing. I would be happy to see it on the WCA's site at all, honestly. It would be unusual for something that isn't an official record to be placed on the main page as that's not what it's used for. Thank you for taking the time to read through all of this!

 

[Yuxuibbs]

Purposely avoided posting in this thread but it seems like we need more females to chime in.

I think female rankings should just be unofficial and incorporated into the WCA website so people don't have to go to people's WCA profiles to figure out whether someone is male or female. I know iWCA exists but it's not easily accessible if you don't know that it exists. It doesn't have to be incorporated into the WCA profile as a ranking (no official records for gender). I don't really care where it is on the WCA website as long as it's easily accessible.
It wouldn't really be fair for the males to have female WR/CR/NR and there really aren't enough female cubers to have it be meaningful (I'm literally top 100 and most of the time top 20 in the world for everything I competed in for female rankings according to iWCA and I'm not that fast). It might provide females that are just starting out a way to feel better about themselves for being top 100 in something though.
People compete against themselves when they know they won't beat WR/CR/NR. If a NR is really easy to beat, no one cares (like Skewb NR/CR 2 months ago). Ultimately, people care about what others think of them and what people tell themselves about themselves. People will not stop trying to beat the official WR/CR/NR because there are (presumably unofficial) female rankings.

 

[sneaklyfox]

What... I don't read carefully for 3 days and this topic has added another dozen or so pages?? I think I spent the better part of the last hour reading when I could have been happily cubing...

I just checked all the other female cubers' WCA profiles (ones who posted in this thread) to see if they were faster or slower than me. Point in fact. I don't think I have much to add that hasn't already been said a billion times except to ask whether we have a poll for female cubers to say whether a sorting on the WCA site would help them or motivate them or not at all or have the opposite effect. I just want to be able to see more easily what female cubers think about this topic rather than reading through pages of posts.

 

[Sa967St]

I just want to be able to see more easily what female cubers think about this topic rather than reading through pages of posts.

See the second post in this thread.

 

[Rubiks560]

I'm so confused...all these girls want this ranking list, when it already exists on iWCA. at this point it just sounds like people are being lazy. Bookmark the page.

That's what I got out of the notable female posts.

To me, it just sounds like females want a way for everyone to go "Oooh. This is the fastest female." But as far as I'm aware, no one cares. And if they do, use iWCA.

Just my 2 cents

Edit: with that being said, I wouldn't care If it was added.
I just dont think we need to when it already exists.

 

[ChickenWrap]

I'm so confused...all these girls want this ranking list, when it already exists on iWCA. at this point it just sounds like people are being lazy. Bookmark the page.

You obviously didn't read the thread. People want it on WCA for greater accessibility, not because they are lazy. Most people haven't heard of iWCA.

 

[Rubiks560]

You obviously didn't read the thread. People want it on WCA for greater accessibility, not because they are lazy. Most people haven't heard of iWCA.

I apologize for having a life and not reading dozens of pages.

I still think this is stupid. Make it more known that iWCA exists than.

 

[rowan]

I apologize for having a life and not reading dozens of pages.

I still think this is stupid. Make it more known that iWCA exists than.

How?

 

[Rubiks560]

How?

Have all the females go spread it by word of mouth and have them bookmark it.

 

[rowan]

Have all the females go spread it by word of mouth and have them bookmark it.

There are only 2,670 registered female cubers... 599 of them in China, 469 in the US, 146 in India, 121 in Brazil, and in the UK there are only 32. How often do you think female cubers are going to meet each other to "spread it by word of mouth?" It would be significantly more annoying if female cubers were constantly posting about this stuff on cubing websites than it would be to add gender sorting on the statistics or miscellaneous page of the WCA...

 

[Rubiks560]

There are only 2,670 registered female cubers... 599 of them in China, 469 in the US, 146 in India, 121 in Brazil, and in the UK there are only 32. How often do you think female cubers are going to meet each other to "spread it by word of mouth?" It would be significantly more annoying if female cubers were constantly posting about this stuff on cubing websites than it would be to add gender sorting on the statistics or miscellaneous page of the WCA...

And how often do you think people actually check the miscellaneous page? Probably not that often.
Not going to continue posting about this topic. IMO it's stupid when people can figure out a way to make iWCA more known. Peace.

 

[rowan]

And how often do you think people actually check the miscellaneous page? Probably not that often.
Not going to continue posting about this topic. IMO it's stupid when people can figure out a way to make iWCA more known. Peace.

"Probably" and you have really vague ideas about how to make it more known. I am sure you're not going to continue posting because you haven't proposed any good way to get the stats out there.