Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

[rowan]

This has nothing to do with anything regarding gender rankings.

I disagree. Creating a list of female gender rankings makes a separate list of rankings for female cubers to compare themselves to if they so choose. They can choose to focus on competing against female ranks instead of generalized ranks which according to sociological research, would improve their performance. The study I'm referring to I mentioned in my initial post, you can look it up if you'd like. It's a very interesting study.

It might be difficult to locate if you don't have access to databases that catalog peer-reviewed journals though, sorry about that.

 

[UB]

IN the sport of speedcubing, we are using our hands and brains.
Going by scientific logic, Female has a better chance of getting WRs and their brain develops faster than boys, thus attaining puberty faster. But in the real world that is opposite. Feliks, Mats and all WRs are Male. So scientific reasoning applies differently.
For Example, If a child starts solving the 3x3 cube at the age of 6, by the age of 18, he will break WRs if he cubes regularly.
Logical reasoning: Our brain tends to develop the most at the age of 13- 15. SO intelligent people will have more IQ and then they can do complex thinking and solve cubes fast.
In the end, it all depends on your Brain and Hands. Because all fast people have excellent hand eye coordination, so I dont think the gender splitting should be done.
Sorry, SirWaffle..

 

[UB]

I disagree. Creating a list of female gender rankings makes a separate list of rankings for female cubers to compare themselves to if they so choose. They can choose to focus on competing against female ranks instead of generalized ranks which according to sociological research, would improve their performance. The study I'm referring to I mentioned in my initial post, you can look it up if you'd like. It's a very interesting study.

It might be difficult to locate if you don't have access to databases that catalog peer-reviewed journals though, sorry about that.

Nah! If you have the dedication, you get get the WR. It isnt like. Another women is there so I can unleash myself and when another men is there, I sit quietly. You just need to have dedication

 

[rowan]

Nah! If you have the dedication, you get get the WR. It isnt like. Another women is there so I can unleash myself and when another men is there, I sit quietly. You just need to have dedication

Do you have anything to back that up?

I'm referring to the phenomena called Stereotype Threat, which has been demonstrated to exist in more "intellectual" sports like Rubik's cubing.

A selection from an article that appeared in the European Journal of Social Psychology: "Most importantly, gender stereotypes can have a greatly debilitating effect on female players leading to a 50% performance decline when playing against males."

 

[UB]

Well from personal sights, I do. I started cubing because there is a female cuber in my class who has sub15 avg. And she can beat me anytime and she does. And she takes up each and every challengs, even from guys. Because she has the dedication to get to sub 10. Thats why I said that. all these studies differ from person to person.There was a study about coffe that people drinking coffe remember things longer, bt it is exactly opposite in my case. So I dont believe in these research

Do you have anything to back that up?

I'm referring to the phenomena called Stereotype Threat, which has been demonstrated to exist in more "intellectual" sports like Rubik's cubing.

 

[rowan]

Well from personal sights, I do. I started cubing because there is a female cuber in my class who has sub15 avg. And she can beat me anytime and she does. And she takes up each and every challengs, even from guys. Because she has the dedication to get to sub 10. Thats why I said that. all these studies differ from person to person.There was a study about coffe that people drinking coffe remember things longer, bt it is exactly opposite in my case. So I dont believe in these research

I'm sorry, you don't believe in research? And you think your sample size of one person is enough to make for an argument? I mean, I guess I don't know what to say in that case. Other than that I think that's a poor basis for a position on this matter.

I didn't mean to blow up this thread or anything, the topic is just something I have a personal interest in and have spent many hours researching. I've made all my arguments though, so I guess now it's just up to people making their own call on the matter.

 

[TheOneOnTheLeft]

Well from personal sights, I do. I started cubing because there is a female cuber in my class who has sub15 avg. And she can beat me anytime and she does. And she takes up each and every challengs, even from guys. Because she has the dedication to get to sub 10. Thats why I said that. all these studies differ from person to person.There was a study about coffe that people drinking coffe remember things longer, bt it is exactly opposite in my case. So I dont believe in these research

Your arguments are all based on single, anecdotal instances. Rowan is making a far better supported point which is based on research into other, arguably comparable, sports, and suggesting that a female ranking list would help remove any gender bias, if it exists. Your anecdotes make no argument against this, and give you no real reason to not "believe in" research. I'm sure the study you mention wasn't trying to say that *everyone* remembers things better when they've had coffee, but rather that in a large sample size there was, on average, a significant improvement in memory when people drank coffee.

 

[uberCuber]

There was a study about coffe that people drinking coffe remember things longer, bt it is exactly opposite in my case. So I dont believe in these research

The amount of ignorance here is hurting my eyes

 

[UB]

LOL, Ignorance
I dont have ego, egoistic people have ignorance
Well talk on the topic. I am outta here

The amount of ignorance here is hurting my eyes

 

[kcl]

LOL, Ignorance
I dont have ego, egoistic people have ignorance
Well talk on the topic. I am outta here

I'd like to mention that you thinking research about the female brain developing faster is wrong, simply because of Feliks and Mats, is just pathetic. Honestly, you want to know why men have the WR's? Because there's a lot more of them. I would bet it's at least a 100:1 ratio of men to women in the database. That's a much greater chance for a male WR.

 

[UB]

My Bad then
Sorry!

I'd like to mention that you thinking research about the female brain developing faster is wrong, simply because of Feliks and Mats, is just pathetic. Honestly, you want to know why men have the WR's? Because there's a lot more of them. I would bet it's at least a 100:1 ratio of men to women in the database. That's a much greater chance for a male WR.

 

[Erik]

Let's do this. There is no real argument against it and it would definitely be nice for the girls/women to have their own battles and/or inspire other girls/women to start cubing as well.

p.s. If gender is unkown I wouldn't call it 'not specified' btw, maybe it's just me but it sounds like it would list all competitors who actually don't have a gender.

 

[kinch2002]

I would bet it's at least a 100:1 ratio of men to women in the database

Not quite

Approximately 82% male, 10% female, 8% unspecified
That equates to ~25k, 3k, 2.5k in absolute numbers

 

[Carrot]

Not quite

Approximately 82% male, 10% female, 8% unspecified
That equates to ~25k, 3k, 2.5k in absolute numbers

what? When I started we had less than 10k in the databse.

 

[ryanj92]

p.s. If gender is unkown I wouldn't call it 'not specified' btw, maybe it's just me but it sounds like it would list all competitors who actually don't have a gender.

This. I feel like two separate options indicating 'other' and 'unspecified' should really be included, for the inclusion and support of those whose gender is non-binary

 

[pipkiksass]

This. I feel like two separate options indicating 'other' and 'unspecified' should really be included, for the inclusion and support of those whose gender is non-binary

This is an entirely different debate!

No other sport or event (to my knowledge) provides rankings for non-binary genders.

That's not to say that the WCA shouldn't be the first; however given the stats on the number of cubers who haven't specified a gender when competing, I don't think this is the situation in most cases. Unless cubing attracts a hugely disproportionate number of individuals who don't classify themselves according to traditional genders. Which is also possible!

 

[ryanj92]

This is an entirely different debate!

No other sport or event (to my knowledge) provides rankings for non-binary genders.

That's not to say that the WCA shouldn't be the first; however given the stats on the number of cubers who haven't specified a gender when competing, I don't think this is the situation in most cases. Unless cubing attracts a hugely disproportionate number of individuals who don't classify themselves according to traditional genders. Which is also possible!

Yeah I realise I'm veering away from the topic but I thought it was a related topic worth mentioning
I disagree that numbers should dictate adding a fairly trivial (in terms of implementation difficulty) but important option, whether rankings are considered or not ^^; maybe this would better directed at the wca directly than on here, though... Maybe I will drop them an email

 

[Dene]

If someone could provide evidence that a certain birth month was underrepresented and that having access to that information increased performance in competitions, it would be beneficial, but I don't really see any arguments for that. The one posted here was sarcasm. However, studies have shown that in non-physical sports, when women compete against other women they perform to the best of their ability. It also just lets starting female cubers know that other female cubers exist, because you honestly couldn't tell from the majority of rankings. I guess I just don't think people should have to go searching for the information, it should be easy to find.

A big question is: Do females actually perform worse in cubing competitions?

Remember cubing is an individual sport. The vast majority of people in cubing competitions are trying to achieve personal targets ("I want a sub20 average and sub 17 single"). There might be some friendly rivalry between some people, but I have seen very little of this in my time (other than WCs, of course). Also, for the most part female cubers are scattered around the world, so they wouldn't often be exposed to other females that are capable of similar times to create a competitiveness within them. Additionally, the vast majority of practise is done at home (or wherever) by oneself.

Altogether, this creates a completely uncomparable environment to chess and other such sports where one plays against another directly. It would be horrendously unscientific to make any deductions based off studies that do not involve analogous situation. Therefore I don't think it is reasonable to come to the conclusions you have.


Also regarding your comment that the WCA already collects gender data: I have argued on multiple occasions that we shouldn't. Regardless of whether we do or not, this is not a good reason to use the data.



PS I advise ignoring the anti-scientific moron, his arguments aren't worth your time

I'm referring to the phenomena called Stereotype Threat, which has been demonstrated to exist in more "intellectual" sports like Rubik's cubing.

A selection from an article that appeared in the European Journal of Social Psychology: "Most importantly, gender stereotypes can have a greatly debilitating effect on female players leading to a 50% performance decline when playing against males."

I can't find any real evidence, but I assume Stereotype Threat also applies to race. Should we have a list for black people and asians too?

 

[Laura O]

Let's do this. There is no real argument against it and it would definitely be nice for the girls/women to have their own battles and/or inspire other girls/women to start cubing as well.

Exactly this.
I don't have the time to read the thread again, but as far as I remember there weren't any arguments against it and there wasn't any female cuber who called this "sexist" or something like this.

I personally really hate those annoying and prejudiced comments you sometimes hear at competitions as a female cuber (my absolute fave one is the assumption that my boyfriend introduced me to cubing...). But we have ratings for different categories on the website (region, year or also number of solves in a year), why shouldn't sex be another one?

And, to be a bit cynical: why do we have regional and continental rankings if anyone in the cubing world is considered as equal?

 

[rowan]

Whoa, non-binary genders being mentioned outside of an LGBT+ activism space? I'm in shock, honestly. This is a cool conversation considering I actually identify as non-binary. I think, personally, I would be comfortable with Not Specified because that doesn't mean I don't have a different ID, I'm just not offering it. But, if the WCA would be willing to add an "other" category, I would be in support, obviously. (Please don't direct weird questions at me about this, you can google what this means if you want.)

Dene, you brought up some pretty good points. Maybe they shouldn't have collected gender data, but at this point I sincerely believe the WCA is already involved in gender statistics so I think that having a separate list is important. Even if it is argued that it doesn't help create competition amongst female cubers, it still provides visibility for other female cubers that most of the top 100 lists do not, which I still find valuable. I see what you're saying about how chess is directly against another opponent, but I don't think there's any more evidence to say people compete against themselves than to say people compete against others. Even if you say this is what you've observed in your interactions, it doesn't mean that people don't care about competing against others. WRs and NRs are important to a lot of people, these records involve competing against others. Competitions in themselves really imply this sort of behavior. Regardless of those points, my entire argument doesn't rest on increasing competitiveness amongst women. Like I said, I think visibility is still an important reason to provide this data. In terms of the research I'm using for some of my points, if I had any data that was entirely on Rubik's cubes, I would utilize it, but it's a very under-studied sport. I still think there's a strong comparison between how the public views chess and cubing, so I think these studies are relevant in commenting on how women, especially new female cubers, perceive and choose to interact with the community.

Stereotype threat does apply to race, however I don't have any data on the different performances by race and the WCA hasn't collected this information, so I can't comment on whether or not this sort of listing should be included.

Even if your view is that the data shouldn't have been collected and its collection doesn't mean it should be used and that Rubik's cubing is not a sport where people compete against each other, what is the actual reason for *not* making this data accessible on the WCA's website? Is it detrimental in any way? Or do you simply not find it beneficial enough? Are marginal benefits important, considering how much of a minority female cubers are? I would argue that if something might encourage more women to compete without compromising the integrity of the event, it should be done.