Older cubers discussions

[JanW]

That was my question though : how do you proceed to remember 6-7 moves ? Do you remember a sequence like U-F-L2-etc ? Or more an image of the moves ?

I remember asking that exact same question in this thread when I first joined, so I can relate to the problem. It might seem a bit overwhelming at first, but with practice you will learn. I also remember visually, no notation.

As other people said, don't worry about timed inspection yet. You should do hundreds, if not thousands, of crosses on the bottom before you start worrying about that. Take your time planning it and eventually you'll get more and more used to seeing patterns.

For me, crosses only started to feel easier to handle after my adventures with ZZ. After pushing my brain by doing the more complex EOLine for a couple of months, the cross suddenly seemed pretty simple. Though there are still cases that are hard and which I can't figure out all the way in 15 seconds. In that case I usually plan 3 cross edges during inspection and follow the last edge while solving those.

 

[SenorJuan]

On the subject of crosses, I've just been doing some slow 3x3 solves, and completely by chance got a double-X-cross....but then saw the third pair was ready made as a 2x1x1 block. I looked at it for a moment, and had this hunch (based on FMC solving) that a sledgehammer insertion would help the 4th pair. Sure enough, it created the 'easy case' (as it oddly seems to be called). The result was a 13-move first two layers, remarkable. I'm pretty sure I've never done one less than 17 moves when trying my hardest to FMC.

And Teacher - it does take an enormous amount of solves to get competent at the cross. I still can't sus out all 4 pieces every time, I can usually find 3 OK, and run that solve through my mind a few times at the end of the 15 secs, so when I execute it, it's a bit automatic, and I can look-ahead for the 4th edge.

 

[mafergut]

I will add my two cents on the cross on bottom thing and how I plan it. I certainly, as others have commented before, visualize the moves, not the notation, in my head. It becomes easier with practice and, as you say, it's not a bad start at all being just 1 second slower or just half a second if you count turning the cube around. If you count the benefit of better lookahead into 1st F2L pair you are already there. As soon as your cross on bottom improves just a tiny bit you will be improving your averages for sure.

I still have problems at times (less and less frequently) with the 4th edge if the cross is pretty bad and I am trying to do inspection in less than 15 seconds but what still bugs me pretty frequently is the final alignment of cross with centers. Another reason to try and become full color neutral, as it means easier crosses most of the time.

EDIT: PB Ao5 (1:13.98) and Ao12 (1:16.74) while practicing 4x4. Ao5 is more than 1sec better and Ao12 almost 3 seconds . Still, long averages are not sub 1:20

 

[pglewis]

I also judged 3-bld and Pyraminx which was a fun time. Had one 'minx come in unscrambled, lifted the cover, started the stopwatch and I hear the kid say "World Record!"

@pipkiksass: Nice single there, and here's hoping getting well progresses as well as your times have been. In the past couple of weeks I've also been getting the suspicion that I generally recognize better on stickerless (and also better on half-bright schemes than full-bright... the lighter blue doesn't seem to register as well for me).

Especially since I save 0.3-0.4 sec for turning the cube over.

My decent crosses are in line with your times but my average takes a hit from the bad ones, I'm hoping to improve in that department as well. I always solved cross on top back in the 80s but switched to bottom early in my learning this time around. It was awkward at first but it wasn't long before it was natural. Solving cross on top was actually harder for me about a month after switching, I'd already re-wired the brain. Most of the advice I've read about solving cross on the bottom focuses on saving the time of the cube rotation but as @mafergut points out I think the real hit is the disruption of lookahead into F2L. Maybe expand your timing tests to include Cross+1st pair. As for long-sequence crosses, I'm hoping switching to white/yellow neutral (or maybe even full CN if I'm lucky) will help me in a fair number of cases where white just isn't friendly. You can also do drills targeted specifically at longer sequence crosses.

Concentrating on remembering those moves left me little place to actually look ahead.

I suffer from the same issue. I've had some success intentionally turning very slowly... slowly enough that my brain can not only keep up, but actually gets bored waiting to insert the last edge. I've had much better lookahead into F2L at those speeds, thanks for reminding me to practice this more.

 

[efattah]

Interesting discussion about the cross on the bottom. I am also at the stage where I making a similar transition though I am solving the four bottom corners (as a random face), and I agree the main advantage of this method is the improved lookahead, but it is an extremely frustrating process to learn, as taking steps back is always frustrating, in order to take steps forward. In my quest for sub-15 I came the closest ever today, 15.07 Ao12, more surprisingly three 12 second solves in the same average (see below!) Finally having time for some structured analysis, today came the big bad realization that I need new algorithm sets. I am using 132 algorithms (EG1, CLL, L5E, E2L, + special cases) and I need to add EG2 (40), Waterman L2R (62), and rotationless L5E (36). Hopefully that will be the last of the new sets!

3x3 Ao12 PB average 15.07
Using my backup main (Valk 3)
LMCF method
12.39
14.68
15.24
16.21
16.34
14.22
12.92
16.60
17.16
19.56
14.40
12.97

 

[newtonbase]

It's the Manchester Open next weekend so I started my traditional relearning of Ortega tonight. Some or their algd have actually stuck so I'll get to move on to relearning clock, pyraminx and skewb a little sooner than usual.

I've accidentally entered 6x6 and 7x7 so I've had a little go at using Hoya on 6x6 and quite enjoyef it. It'll take a miracle and a new cube to get me under the 10 min cut off so I'm unlikely to compete but any time spent practicing on the puzzle will help 4x4 and 5x5 so it won't be wasted.

 

[teacher77]

Maybe an out of topic question but : I'm thinking about buying a StackMat timer. Does that device compute averages and such or is it ONLY a timer ?

 

[lillod]

It is only a timer but it can be connected to a computer and select smartphones with a cord.

 

[teacher77]

It is only a timer but it can be connected to a computer and select smartphones with a cord.

as in... It records 50-100 times and you can then transfer them altogheter ?

 

[lillod]

as in... It records 50-100 times and you can then transfer them altogheter ?

you would have a timing program open and use the stackmat instead of the spacebar.

 

[teacher77]

And Teacher - it does take an enormous amount of solves to get competent at the cross. I still can't sus out all 4 pieces every time, I can usually find 3 OK, and run that solve through my mind a few times at the end of the 15 secs, so when I execute it, it's a bit automatic, and I can look-ahead for the 4th edge.

I tried doing that but half of the time the last edge won't end up on the top. What to do then ?

 

[JohnnyReggae]

My take on the Cross on the Bottom .... Think of the edges in relation to each other rather than position. You can always do D moves once they are all placed. To train myself to think quicker about the cross I started using the Inspection timer before solves to force myself to have at least the cross figured out by 8 seconds. I'm still only concentrating on the cross pieces and can have that figured out in a few seconds. It's rare that the timer gets to 8 seconds. I suppose this means I should now be trying to look ahead more into my first pair at least

 

[JanW]

I tried doing that but half of the time the last edge won't end up on the top. What to do then ?

At least it will end up on the top a lot more often with the cross on the bottom than with the cross on the top. This is the thing with cross on the bottom, it is in my opinion a lot easier to do it than cross on top once you get used to it. When building the cross on the bottom, you can much better keep track of where the cross pieces to insert are, in case you forget some of your plan halfway through.

Regarding planning the cross, it shouldn't make any difference if you plan to build it on top or on the bottom. It's just as many moves.

 

[pglewis]

This is the thing with cross on the bottom, it is in my opinion a lot easier to do it than cross on top once you get used to it. When building the cross on the bottom, you can much better keep track of where the cross pieces to insert are, in case you forget some of your plan halfway through.

Very much this. Granted, it was probably easier for me to switch back when I was still super slow on the cross. @teacher77 is faster on cross solutions than I am so it's bound to be disheartening at first.

 

[earth2dan]

You and @JanW
I'm much more concerned with two issues :
1) Screwing up 22% of the time seems to fit with the number of cross-on-top solves where I NEEDED to look. How can you plan 7-8 moves in advance and remember them ? Do you remember an actual letter sequence like U-F-D2-etc ? Or do you remember a visual image of those moves ? Any specific tricks or maybe ressources I could read ?
2) Concentrating on remembering those moves left me little place to actually look ahead. In 50 solves, there's only a single one, which happened to be a 3-move cross, where I actually had found a pair before the cross was finished. Did it start like that for you guys ? How much time did it take you to be able to solve a cross on the bottom while actually looking ahead ?

Only 1 second slower after just learning cross on bottom is very good. The time saved flipping the cube alone nearly negates that.
1) I sort of visualize and program the hand motions into short term memory one at a time. I don't use any kind of notation or specific memory trick. This was really difficult at first. Anything more than a 4 move cross would ruin me. All I can say is that it gets better, and easier with practice. Dedicated cross practice. I still sometimes just plan 3 edges on an ugly cross and slam the last one in however it ends up.
2) Don't worry about lookahead yet, just focus on cross building. When you can comfortably solve your cross blindfolded most of the time, then you're ready to lookahead. At first I didn't bother trying to locate pairs while building my cross, unless it was really easy. I usually just look for a corner I can track so I know where it's going to end up on the last couple moves of my cross, then I can usually spot the edge in time to flow into first pair with minimal pause. Sometimes while doing this you'll notice another pair that's even better than the corner you were tracking.

For me this process has been really slow, and I still have lots of room to improve. I have to revisit it regularly to avoid getting lazy with my crosses again. Cross building isn't one of those skills where once I learned it, it's done. This requires constant maintenance and active practice for me.

 

[mafergut]

Still lots of insigthful comments about cross planning That's what I love about this thread.

Also @teacher77. Don't be too optimistic about being able to connect a stackmat timer to a computer. Some of the regulars in this thread have tried that and failed, including myself. I bought the cables but as soon as I connected the timer to the laptop it would go awry and stop working.

Today I received my QiYi order (WuQue, WuShuang and WuHua). First impressions:

- WuQue: Very stable. 3x3 stage is very good and LL algs flow very nicely. Almost no need to break it in, as it was good out of the box, even the inner layers. The only "but" is that it's a bit slow and feels too light / with little inertia so I need to adapt the turning a bit and instead of flicking and let it go I have to accompany the layer all the way through or I get undershooting problems. Will do an Ao100 and compare the times with what I am getting now with the CangFeng.

- WuShuang: Nice and easy to turn but maybe a bit too small? I like smaller cubes but maybe this is a bit too much for a 5x5 to be comfortable. I just solved it 3-4 times and once I get used to it I think I'll get at least the same times as with the Yuxin. I like how easy to turn it is, believe it or not my Yuxin is a bit on the heavy side, maybe it needs some lube. A bit less stable than the Yuxin but might have main potential if I can adjust to the small size.

-WuHua: Just turned it a bit, didn't really solve it, but the bigger size compared to the Yuxin 6x6 is quite noticeable. Will have to use it more to form an opinion.

 

[mark49152]

- WuQue: .... The only "but" is that it's a bit slow and feels too light / with little inertia so I need to adapt the turning a bit and instead of flicking and let it go I have to accompany the layer all the way through or I get undershooting problems.

What colour plastic? I have black and it's sluggish.

 

[kbrune]

Thanks for the thoughts on BLD @mark49152 @h2f @newtonbase

I'm going to put more practice I to memo itself. It's the part I have most difficulty with.

Newton I didn't realize how fast you were at Bld! Wow! Impressive.

@pglewis
Congrats on your PBs at comp! Always feels good to improve official times. Especially when you know you'll beat it again next time.

@teacher77
Bottom cross is OP. You'll definitely see progress once you adopt it 100%. Guaranteed. I remember when I read a post that mentioned bottom cross. I switched Instantly and never regretted it! Keep at it!

And don't worry too much about being able to solve 7-8 move crosses easily within Inspection. I still can't do it. In fact I struggle to be able to look for one corner while I solve cross. It's my biggest weakness.

 

[SenorJuan]

I've just taken a look at JoeT's UK-Cubes store, to find it's renamed, and is now 'Corner Twist'
http://www.corner-twist.com/
And he has the new 'Ivy' puzzle from QiYi in stock, which looks intriguing and is very affordable, too:
http://www.corner-twist.com/store/p84/qiyi_ivy_cube
And to be fair to Marty, he also sells it:
http://thepuzzlestore.uk/qiyi-mo-fang-ge-ivy-cube-by-eitan/
And there's more 'related' puzzles to come, it seems.

 

[mafergut]

What colour plastic? I have black and it's sluggish.

Mine is stickerless. And yeah, it's quite slow. When I said light I don't mean light to turn but just the opposite. The plastic doesn't seem to have much substance so the friction stops it easily. The CangFeng has much more inertia and less friction so you can flick a layer and it just goes. The WuQue will stop moving as soon as the finger leaves contact with the cube unless you flick really hard. I assume that's the price to pay for stability.

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