Older cubers discussions

[pglewis]

Again: I do really like this, to be able to compare myself to other 60- or 70-years old persons.
And I do not think you should alter this if you don't want to.

Still: it says: singles for 4-bld, 5-bld and multi.
single or avg for 3-bld and FMC.

Maybe the exception for 3-bld is reasonable (for FMC, definitely as you may compete in both).

Still, I for one could want an exception for 6x6 and 7x7, I do not think I will ever be to a competition
where I am allowed to do more than one 7x7 solve.

You're right, I completely missed that 4-bld and 5-bld use singles and not best score of sing/avg, I'll have to fix that.

As for exceptions for big cubes, I'm torn. On one hand, the easiest thing to do is just follow what the "official" kinch ranks does. No exceptions in the code to remember years later, no extra explanations needed in the FAQ, one clear source of truth spelled out in the forum post. On the other hand, here's the reasoning behind why the "official" kinch ranks use single or average for 3bld or FMC:

"For 3bld and FM, the average rankings are not yet established enough, so single ranks are allowed to be used instead if advantageous for a person."

6x6x6 and 7x7x7 averages do not run very deep in the senior rankings, with only a handful of results in 60+ and nothing for 70+. There is a strong argument to be made that exceptions for 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 align with the "spirit" of how kinch ranks decided to handle poorly established rankings in a different situation.

 

[MatsBergsten]

You're right, I completely missed that 4-bld and 5-bld use singles and not best score of sing/avg, I'll have to fix that.

As for exceptions for big cubes, I'm torn. On one hand, the easiest thing to do is just follow what the "official" kinch ranks does. No exceptions in the code to remember years later, no extra explanations needed in the FAQ, one clear source of truth spelled out in the forum post. On the other hand, here's the reasoning behind why the "official" kinch ranks use single or average for 3bld or FMC:



6x6x6 and 7x7x7 averages do not run very deep in the senior rankings, with only a handful of results in 60+ and nothing for 70+. There is a strong argument to be made that exceptions for 6x6x6 and 7x7x7 align with the "spirit" of how kinch ranks decided to handle poorly established rankings in a different situation.

Thanks!
Don't forget to do the same for multi as for 4/5-bld.

As for using best of single/avg for big cubes I'm for it (with your arguments) but I don't insist on it.
I can do a 7x7 faster than my official 22 minutes but three solves for an average total time sub 45
minutes is not probable.

 

[pglewis]

Thanks!
Don't forget to do the same for multi as for 4/5-bld.

As for using best of single/avg for big cubes I'm for it (with your arguments) but I don't insist on it.
I can do a 7x7 faster than my official 22 minutes but three solves for an average total time sub 45
minutes is not probable.

The WCA doesn't even track mean for multi, there's no such thing, so single is the only option anyway.

 

[MatsBergsten]

The WCA doesn't even track mean for multi, there's no such thing, so single is the only option anyway.

Stupid of me . Sorry. No problem then.

 

[pglewis]

Thanks!
Don't forget to do the same for multi as for 4/5-bld.

As for using best of single/avg for big cubes I'm for it (with your arguments) but I don't insist on it.
I can do a 7x7 faster than my official 22 minutes but three solves for an average total time sub 45
minutes is not probable.

This may require a thread of it's own soon, for discussion.

It occurred to me that not using average where available for 4bld/5bld is also against the spirit of kinch ranks in general and I now realize that's because kinch ranks were established in 2015 and the WCA didn't recognize Mo3 for those events until 2019.

My new current leaning is:

1. Continue to use the best score of sing/avg for 4bld/5bld. If someone has an outlier single stuffing your score you should still be rewarded for achieving a better mean. I haven't checked but I suspect the official overall kinch ranks page scores things this way now.

2. Use the best score of sing/avg for 6 and 7. We have shallow results for averages in the senior ranks and it makes things far more interesting for the 60+ and 70+ kinch rankings.

 

[pglewis]

@MatsBergsten By the way, you were one of the highlights in Shen Flindell's weekly senior roundup:

Mats Bergsten (70+ Kinch #1) set 3 new 70+ world records and 2 PRs at Swedish Championship 2025 this weekend. He became the first person over 70 to record a 5BLD success, setting a new world record with 26:29. He also set two lifetime PRs: 3x3 average 32.10 improves on the 70+ world record he set last year, and Skewb average 55.69 enters the rankings at 4th. 3x3 best 28.78 also improves on his previous 70+ world record. He also improved his 70+ results with several non-PRs: 2x2 best 10.29 (9th to 4th) and average 19.22 (8th to 7th); and Skewb best 29.64 (enters 5th). Mats now has thirteen 70+ and six 60+ current world records.

 

[shentabla]

Hi everyone,

I'm a 50+ cuber new to this forum. Back in 1982 my best time was 90 seconds, using Patrick Bossert's "You Can Do the Cube" techniques.

In 2019 my wife thought I looked bored at a friend's house and handed me a cube that was there, a decision she's regretted ever since. I got deep into practice and gradually stepped up to bigger cubes.

In 2023 I went to my first comp, with the hope that I would get faster times than anyone in the same age bracket or older than me. My 6x6x6 judge told me about the Senior Rankings page and I found that my big cube times were pretty good for an old fella. I also met Toby Chamberlain, a fellow 50+ solver who told me about the Senior Cubers Worldwide (SCW) group on Facebook.

At my next comp a couple of months later, I had a really good day and managed to break both 50+ world records in 7x7 as well as 6x6 single. Since then I haven't managed to beat my 6x6 times in a comp, but I've made several improvements to both my 7x7 records.

My 50+ big cube rival Chris Wright took the 6x6 record back soon after, and I found that I was regularly following him and other top senior cubers every weekend, so I started writing a weekly report on the SCW group, which seems to be quite popular. I report on PRs and other ranking changes by almost 100 "top senior solvers".

Since then I've also gotten big-time into blindfold solving. I recently got a bronze medal with my first 4BLD success and I'm hoping for 5BLD success at the next comp. I'm also pretty good at OH, having the 50+ WR2 average. I've just started Megaminx too. I'm really not very interested in "sprint" events so I'll probably only get into the various side events if I ever get a 5BLD mean.

Through SCW I came into contact with Phil Lewis and encouraged him to put together another senior cubing webpage, which has grown into Senior Cubing Tracker, which has recent top results and Senior Kinch rankings.

Phil let me know that a couple of my top stars are active in this forum and actively NOT on Facebook, so he requested that I post my weekly reports here too. I guess that will go in the "Older cubers discussions" thread, though I wonder if the existence of a 1000+ page thread implies that perhaps a sub-forum for senior cubers might be in order here?

(This intro is duplicated on the Member Introductions sub-forum.)

 

[pglewis]

After a fair bit of excavation and new wiring the senior profile page is finally taking shape and not just a mock-up. I'm liking the mobile friendliness of this latest layout experiment.

 

[Constant Cuber]

Phil let me know that a couple of my top stars are active in this forum and actively NOT on Facebook, so he requested that I post my weekly reports here too. I guess that will go in the "Older cubers discussions" thread, though I wonder if the existence of a 1000+ page thread implies that perhaps a sub-forum for senior cubers might be in order here?

This sounds great as I am one of those folks not on facebook! I do also keep a close eye on the senior rankings so I’m looking forward to your next roundup!

I also got started in the early 80s with a best time of 60 secs and started back into cubing in spring 2019 after I saw a 5x5 in a toy store while shopping for my granddaughter lol.

 

[shentabla]

WEEKEND COMP ROUNDUP (JUN 13-15)
A SWR streak of 9 weeks comes to an end with a quiet one...

Last week, Liang Chen (MBLD SWR) made a 3BLD best PR 41.17 at Yancheng Open 2025, taking him from 4th past Julio Perugorria Lorente to 3rd.

This week, Lisa Kucala (60+ Kinch #2) made double FMC PRs in both rounds at Efficient Minnesota Summer 2025, finishing with mean 56.33 (5th to 4th) and best 49 (remains 6th). She also PRed at Minnesota Slice 2025 with 7x7 best 9:04.58, remaining ranked 3rd among 60+. Her FMC results take her from 19th to 18th in the 50+ Kinch rankings.

AJ Nicholls (40+ Kinch #8) made double 3OH PRs at Manchester June 2025: best 20.46 takes him from 19th past Ron van Bruchem to 16th, and average 33.04 remains 48th.

Anthony Rochester (MBLD SWR2) made 3 double PRs at TAS Side State Championship 2025 this week: Megaminx average 2:37.22 (enters at 77th) and best 2:29.08 (111th to 97th); 6x6 mean 5:53.39 (enters at 83rd) and best 5:39.47 (133rd to 111th); and 3OH average 43.56 (201st to 121st) and best 39.04 (215th to 164th).

Thor Muto Asmund earned a 3rd place podium at Risbjerg Juni 2025 with 4BLD best 7:10.69.

There were a few top ten results from outside my watchlist last week, which I found via Phil Lewis' Recent Senior Records page:
: Carlos Acosta (70+) at Kansas Championship 2025 – 3x3 best 33.29 (7th to 4th)
: Santiago Serrano Cernadas (60+) at L'Eliana Open 2025 – Clock average 14.17 and best 11.97 (both 13th to 10th)

This week I also followed Peter Hugosson-Miller, Javier Cabezuelo Sánchez, Maria Oey, Ton Dennenbroek, Doug Li, Jae Park, and Kerry Go, who competed without making any new PRs.

Congratulations to all of these high achievers!

In 40+ Kinch Rankings, an OH PR has taken Christophe Grosjean from 20th past Ron van Bruchem to 17th.

In 50+, Lisa Kucala's FMC results take her from 19th to 18th ahead of Dieter Amberger. YongGeal Lee entered the top 25 at 24th, pushing Peter Hugosson-Miller to 25th.

Donna Leiber's registration has come through and she enters the 70+ Kinch rankings at 9th, ahead of Patitpavan Neel.

Next week: Mats Bergsten, Peter Hugosson-Miller, Bobby Mapp, Gary Miller, Lars Vennike Nielsson, Thor Muto Asmund, István Kocza, Aaron Soley, Daniel Houghton, Olivier Wirz, and Jae Park, in 8 competitions around the world.

My watchlist consists of the following:
: Cubes 3x3-7x7 - top 10 average, top 5 single 40+, top 5 average and top 2 single in older age groups
: 2x2, FMC, MM - top 5 average, top 2 single 40+, top 2 average and top single in older age groups
: BLD - top 3 average and single 40+, top 2 average and single in older age groups
: Other events - top 2 average, top single 40+, top average and top single in older age groups
: Kinch rankings – top 10 in 40+, top 5 in older age groups (minimum score 10), top 3 female

This has resulted in a list of 97 "top ranked seniors". Please don't ask me to follow you as well, unless you fit the above criteria and I've missed something.

Please let me know if you know of anyone moving to a new age group who might be a candidate to join the top ranks.

Many thanks to Michael George for creating and maintaining the Senior Cubing Rankings website, and to Phil Lewis for creating the Senior Cubing Tracker site, which can be found via the Useful Links section of the SCR site.

 

[MatsBergsten]

Is it worth to try to learn hoya (for 4x4 and larger). I have a 4x4 average 2:07.14 that was set in 2014.
Been doing the same algs since round 2010 or so I guess. (reduction to 3x3 and then solve "as usual"),
How much work is it?

Or should I go for a more expensive cube / lube instead?

 

[shentabla]

Is it worth to try to learn hoya (for 4x4 and larger). I have a 4x4 average 2:07.14 that was set in 2014.
Been doing the same algs since round 2010 or so I guess. (reduction to 3x3 and then solve "as usual"),
How much work is it?

Or should I go for a more expensive cube / lube instead?

I use Yau all the way up to 7x7. I find it very helpful to have a more limited number of pieces to focus on at each stage.

 

[Mike Hughey]

You can try Hoya and Yau and see which you like better. Either can help, although at our age it is a fairly substantial learning curve. As shentabla says, it really helps limiting the amount of places you have to look for the next pieces.

Clearly Yau is preferred over Hoya at this point - it seems to be faster - but to me, Hoya felt more fun, and it seemed only a little slower, so I decided to go with Hoya. I am now using Hoya for everything through 7x7x7.

 

[stoic]

As someone else who’s not on Facebook, thanks very much for the update above and all the work everyone is doing to keep the older cubing community alive!

 

[shentabla]

WEEKEND COMP ROUNDUP (JUN 18-24)
Another comp, another four world records for the 70+ king...

Mats Bergsten (70+ Kinch #1) set 3 SWRs earlier this month, and at Stockholmsligan Nane - Twiga 2025 he topped that with another 4 70+ SWRs: 3x3 average PR 31.68 is a half second improvement on his previous SWR, while 3x3 best 28.77 is a 0.01s improvement; 3OH average PR 1:56.42 is his first success in that event, entering the 70+ rankings at #1, and best PR 1:19.82 improves his previous SWR by almost 20 seconds. His 3OH average also enters the 60+ rankings at 9th place. While not a lifetime PR, 2x2 average 15.82 improves his 70+ record but remains ranked 7th. Mats now has thirteen 70+ and six 60+ current world records.

Gary Miller (70+ Clock WR) made 3 PRs at Colonial Cube VA Summer 2025: 4x4 average 7:36.77 enters at 2nd, and best 6:16.68 remains ranked 3rd; and 3OH average 4:12.48 remains ranked 2nd.

Thor Muto Asmund (50+ Kinch #2) made 2 PRs at Gladsaxe Midsommer 2025: 5x5 best 1:42.56 takes him from 7th past Helmut Heilig to 4th; and Square-1 best 20.56 from 6th past Mickey Doyle to 3rd among 50+.

Peter Hugosson-Miller (60+ Kinch #3) made a 4x4 average PR 1:46.06 at Oslo Open 2025, taking him from 7th past Thierry Megard to 6th among 60+, and improving his 50+ Kinch ranking from 25th to 24th.

Lars Vennike Nielsson (OH SWRs) was also in Gladsaxe and made 2 double PRs: Clock average 14.69 enters at 124th and best 12.04 takes him from 255th to 113th; and Square-1 average 1:06.21 enters at 91st and best 48.38 at 96th (just ahead of Ron van Bruchem). These new events in his senior profile improve his senior Kinch ranking from 35th to 23rd, ahead of Stefan Lidström.

Aaron Soley (40+ Kinch #9) made a senior PR Pyraminx average 10.87, taking him from 130th to 126th.

Daniel Houghton (big cubes top 5s) made a Skewb average PR 12.79 at Swisscubing Cup IV 2025, taking him from 147th to 127th.

István Kocza (50+ BLD WRs) earned a 3rd place podium at Hungarian All-Rounder 6 2025 with 3BLD best 1:03.87.

There were a few top ten results from outside my watchlist last week, which I found via Phil Lewis' Recent Senior Records page:
: Raffaele Bonifazi (50+) at Salento Tarallucci e Cubing 2025 - 3x3 average 15.42 (22nd to 7th)
: Chad Harris (50+) at CubingUSA Southeast Championship 2025 – 4BLD best 7:37.86 (11th to 8th)
- Square-1 average 36.62 (11th to 10th)
: Morten Raknes Johansen (50+) at Oslo Open 2025 - Skewb best 5.00 (22nd to 8th)

This week I also followed Bobby Mapp, Olivier Wirz, and Jae Park, who competed without making any new PRs.

Congratulations to all of these high achievers!

In 40+ Kinch Rankings, as mentioned above Lars Vennike Nielsson enters the top 25 at 23, pushingStefan Lidström to 24th.

In 50+ Kinch, Peter Hugosson-Miller reversed last week's swap with YongGeal Lee, retaking 24th place.

Next week: Doug Li, Daniel Houghton, Peter Hugosson-Miller, Jia-Hong Lu, István Kocza, Rodney Topor, Robert Ślesicki, Ron van Bruchem, Ton Dennenbroek, AJ Nicholls, Chris Wright, Ulrich Spies, Lisa Kucala, Sonja Black, and Choi Goho, in 13 competitions around the world.

My watchlist consists of the following:
: Cubes 3x3-7x7 - top 10 average, top 5 single 40+, top 5 average and top 2 single in older age groups
: 2x2, FMC, MM - top 5 average, top 2 single 40+, top 2 average and top single in older age groups
: BLD - top 3 average and single 40+, top 2 average and single in older age groups
: Other events - top 2 average, top single 40+, top average and top single in older age groups
: Kinch rankings – top 10 in 40+, top 5 in older age groups (minimum score 10), top 3 female

This has resulted in a list of 98 "top ranked seniors". Please don't ask me to follow you as well, unless you fit the above criteria and I've missed something.

Please let me know if you know of anyone moving to a new age group who might be a candidate to join the top ranks.

Many thanks to Michael George for creating and maintaining the Senior Cubing Rankings website, and to Phil Lewis for creating the Senior Cubing Tracker site, which can be found via the Useful Links section of the SCR site.

 

[MatsBergsten]

Now I tried (but only a little) Hoya / Yau. But I wonder what's the real point is.
(I don't doubt that is better than my reduction -> 3x3) Is it the thing not to have to look
for edges "down left" or is it that it's easier to form edges/dedges while not all centers
are done? If I pair edges with blind algs I only have to look at my buffer and then a place
that i know where it is. (most of the times if there does not happen to be a new cycle).

(yes, I also understand that blind edge pairing algs are slower )

I can confess that I use blind algs for last layer in one-handed and that's easier for me
because I already know them.

 

[Mike Hughey]

Is it the thing not to have to look
for edges "down left" or is it that it's easier to form edges/dedges while not all centers are done?

I would say yes to both. But probably the first reason is more important.

 

[shentabla]

WEEKEND COMP ROUNDUP (JUN 26-29)
Various PRs in Megaminx, 2x2, 3x3, 6x6, Clock and 3BLD this week...

Chris Wright (50+ 6x6 WRs) made a Megaminx PR best 1:29.10 at Bristol June 2025, an improvement of 0.40s remaining ranked 2nd among 50+.

Rodney Topor (70+ Skewb WRs) broke the one minute barrier on 3x3 as part of 3 PRs at Toowoomba Twist Off 2025: 2x2 best 8.06 takes him from 6th to 2nd*; 3x3 average 59.45 takes him from 18th to 11th*, and best 48.42 from 16th to 11th*. (* There is a missing 70+ entry at 2nd in 2x2 and around 10th/11th in 3x3.)

Peter Hugosson-Miller (60+ Kinch #3) made a Clock best PR 13.42 at VERK VII 2025, taking him from 13th past Thierry Megard to 12th place among 60+.

Ulrich Spies (60+ MM WR2) made a 6x6 PR best 6:37.84 at Nivelles Bigs 2025, taking him from 7th past Ton Dennenbroek to 5th among 60+.

Choi Goho (Senior Kinch #1) made a long awaited 3BLD best PR 1:22.59 at Osan Summer 2025, 11 years after his previous 3BLD PR, taking him from 52nd to 34th.

Jia-Hong Lu (3x3-5x5 sighted and blind WRs) earned a 3rd place podium in 3BLD at Taipei Summer Be Quiet 2025 with best 25.73. Over three rounds of 3BLD he got 5 successful solves between 25.73 and 31.34!

The WCA Export has not come out for over a week, but I did notice Pete Lee's Megaminx results from outside my watchlist this week:
: Pete Lee (40+) at Bristol June 2025: Megaminx best 1:13.23 (7th to 4th) and average 1:27.84 (12th to 7th)

This week I also followed Doug Li, Daniel Houghton, István Kocza, Robert Ślesicki, Ron van Bruchem, Ton Dennenbroek, AJ Nicholls, Lisa Kucala, and Sonja Black, who competed without making any new PRs.

Congratulations to all of these high achievers!

Due to the missing WCA Export, I can't give any updates on Kinch rankings.

Next week: AJ Nicholls, Chris Hardwick, Doug Li, Gary Miller, István Kocza, Jae Park, Jochen Bauer, Kerry Go, Lisa Kucala, Ming Dao Ting, Rich Tayag, Ron van Bruchem, Takao Hashimoto, and Timothy Lawrance at the Rubik's WCA World Championship 2025, plus John Cook and Martin Ernesto Melcop, in 2 other competitions around the world.

My watchlist consists of the following:
: Cubes 3x3-7x7 - top 10 average, top 5 single 40+, top 5 average and top 2 single in older age groups
: 2x2, FMC, MM - top 5 average, top 2 single 40+, top 2 average and top single in older age groups
: BLD - top 3 average and single 40+, top 2 average and single in older age groups
: Other events - top 2 average, top single 40+, top average and top single in older age groups
: Kinch rankings – top 10 in 40+, top 5 in older age groups (minimum score 10), top 3 female

This has resulted in a list of 98 "top ranked seniors". Please don't ask me to follow you as well, unless you fit the above criteria and I've missed something.

Please let me know if you know of anyone moving to a new age group who might be a candidate to join the top ranks.

Many thanks to Michael George for creating and maintaining the Senior Cubing Rankings website, and to Phil Lewis for creating the Senior Cubing Tracker site, which can be found via the Useful Links section of the SCR site.

 

[pglewis]

First batch of senior pics from Worlds, courtesy of Sarah Kim on the FB group.

 

[Spencer131]

if im 23 do i count as an older cuber