OH Method Debate

[maticuber]

But no one thinks of F2L as algorithms and if you add COLL it's still barely over 100 algs

but they are algs, and you have to drill them. 3style can be learned without algorithms, but they still are algs.

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

but they are algs, and you have to drill them. 3style can be learned without algorithms, but they still are algs.

Uhhh... have you ever used CFOP? Literally any reasonably good solver you ask won't say they are algs. You could say the same thing for the blocks on ZZ. "Oh no it's just block building with basic turning limiting your speed" And CFOP F2L is just more limited block building, never are you ever using anything remotely close to algs unless you are a new solver and can't get your head around piece movement.

 

[brododragon]

but they are algs, and you have to drill them. 3style can be learned without algorithms, but they still are algs.

Yes, I love to drill algs I don't know.

EDIT: I think drilling intuitive algs is called "practicing".

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

Prove it then. Do EO and then EO line and I will do cross. We will see who is faster. stackmat only come back with an average of 50 and I will do the same

C'mon, prove the validity of your arguments or no one will take them seriously

 

[maticuber]

Prove it then. Do EO and then EO line and I will do cross. We will see who is faster.

EOline is one step, and you'll beat me just because I'm trash at OH (20s avg), but I got those times back in 2010.

Uhhh... have you ever used CFOP? Literally any reasonably good solver you ask won't say they are algs. You could say the same thing for the blocks on ZZ

The fact that you don't think about them as algs doesn't mean they aren't, you can identify all the possible cases from different angles and execute an alg to solve it efficiently, let's be real, nobody uses intuitive F2L while speedsolving past a certain point. Anyone sub 15 has their F2L drilled and do it without thinking.

 

[Micah Morrison]

because is optimized for 2H, not for OH, and it has almost 40 years of development, not even 10 years ago half the std OLL/PLL were different.

Roux is a bad method because it was optimized for 2H. I don't actually think that, but that shows how flawed your argument is. Just because a method was made for 2H doesn't mean it can't be used for OH.

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

EOline is one step, and you'll beat me just because I'm trash at OH (20s avg), but I got those times back in 2010.




The fact that you don't think about them as algs doesn't mean they aren't, you can identify all the possible cases from different angles and execute an alg to solve it efficiently, let's be real, nobody uses intuitive F2L while speedsolving past a certain point. Anyone sub 15 has their F2L drilled and do it without thinking.

But I thought since ZZ was sooooo much better of course you would have an edge.

And no, F2L is algless ask anyone except @WarriorCatCuber F2L HAS NO ALGS,

I am sub 10 and yes I have all the F2L cases locked into muscle memory. But that doesn't make them algs!

 

[brododragon]

let's be real, nobody uses intuitive F2L while speedsolving past a certain point. Anyone sub 15 has their F2L drilled and do it without thinking.

So no one sees a problem with that sentence?

 

[maticuber]

Roux is a bad method because it was optimized for 2H. I don't actually think that, but that shows how flawed your argument is. Just because a method was made for 2H doesn't mean it can't be used for OH.

roux is only good due to table abuse, and I do think that roux is way better than cfop for both OH and 2H.

But I thought since ZZ was sooooo much better of course you would have an edge

I don't know your times but I'm guessing you are way better than me, but that proves nothing.

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

I don't know your times but I'm guessing you are way better than me, but that proves nothing.

We are a similar speed, I am sub 19 and you average 20

I agree Roux is better than CFOP but ZZ is even worse than those

 

[Owen Morrison]

We are a similar speed, I am sub 19 and you average 20

I think he averages 20 two handed.

EDIT: never mind, I'm stupid, I read his post. He said OH.

 

[Micah Morrison]

roux is only good due to table abuse, and I do think that roux is way better than cfop for both OH and 2H

"Way better" is definitely an exaggeration. I think Roux probably has slightly more potential for OH and the two methods are probably almost equal for 3x3.

 

[brododragon]

The fact that you don't think about them as algs doesn't mean they aren't

The fact that something isn't x doesn't mean it's not x.

Anyone sub 15 has their F2L drilled and do it without thinking.

I love just drilling those Petrus 2x2x2 algs.

 

[maticuber]

We are a similar speed, I am sub 19 and you average 20

my OH avg was 20 in 2011, with cfop, I'm just back into cubing and after seeing how zz works (I didn't knew the method back then) and analyzing it it's clear that it's a better method for OH, EOLine is similar to cross, block building with zz is way better due to the way it works, and you can go straight into COLL+EPLL which is way better than OLL+PLL for OH.

 

[brododragon]

my OH avg was 20 in 2011, with cfop, I'm just back into cubing and after seeing how zz works (I didn't knew the method back then) and analyzing it it's clear that it's a better method for OH, EOLine is similar to cross, block building with zz is way better due to the way it works, and you can go straight into COLL+EPLL which is way better than OLL+PLL for OH.

You do realize you still gotta drill those intuitive F2L algs?

 

[maticuber]

You do realize you still gotta drill those intuitive F2L algs?

do you think that Max or Felix intuitively solve F2L in competitions? they must have a really big brain.

"Way better" is definitely an exaggeration. I think Roux probably has slightly more potential for OH and the two methods are probably almost equal for 3x3.

you also have to take into account the amount of people who uses both methods and how developed they are, we do know that both methods are capable of sub-6 2H and sub 10 OH but which method makes it easier? we do know that sub 20 with cfop is easy, it has been proven many many times, but sub 20 OH with cfop is not as easy, sub 10 OH with cfop is something that only a few people have achieved, and how many have tried? it's definitely not easy. Maybe if roux was more popular, more people could be sub-10 OH.

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

My OH rankings:
ZB-Roux (LEOR?)
Layout: starts with good intuitive block building and finishes with solving the DF and DB edges while orienting LL edges, ZBLL is used after to solve the rest.
Pros: uses R, U, r, M and F moves for the majority of the solve. has low movecount. Doesn't use that many M moves.
Cons: ZBLL is hard to learn, FB is not very ergonomic,

Roux
Layout: Starts with good intuitive block building, orient and permute last layer edges in one ergonomic alg solve the rest of the cube with M and U
Pros: uses R, U, r, F and M for most of the solve,
Cons: uses many M moves for the end of the solve. And has a higher movecount that ZB-Roux/LEOR

CFOP
Layout: Solve a cross, insert four F2L pairs, OLL, PLL
Pros: F2L is easy and will have a maximum of 4 rotations if done correctly, OLL and PLL are relatively easy to execute quickly, If you learn ZBLL/ COLL your solves will be faster.
Cons: Cross is the least ergonomic part of the solve with F and B moves being used not uncommonly, rotations are bad (but again maximum of 4), OLL is not ergonomic for OH. Highest movecount

ZZ
Layout: Do random moves at the beginning always containing an F or B, Solve DF and DB, solve the left block, Solve the right block, COLL, PLL
Pros: Second block uses R U, EPLL if you know COLL. 3rd highest movecount.
Cons: Uses RUL which is pretty bad for OH, EO line takes longer and is less ergonomic than cross.

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

do you think that Max or Felix intuitively solve F2L in competitions? they must have a really big brain.

Yes they do in fact solve F2L without algs. Everyone does ASK LITERALLY ANYONE WHO USES CFOP COMPETENTLY. Where did you get the idea that people use algs for F2L?

 

[ProStar]

@maticuber You're either an idiot, trolling, or had a very sorry understanding of CFOP. COLL isn't as good as OCLL->PLL for ZZ, F2L isn't algs, table abuse is allowed so reliance on it doesn't make Roux bad, you only need 2LLL to be really good at CFOP, you have no proof that Roux is easier to be sub-10 OH so your argument that few CFOPers have achieved it is moot, just because you can do F2L cases quickly doesn't mean you learned algs for them, Max, "Felix" Matts, Patrick, and any other CFOPer you want to bring up doesn't know many algs for F2L but simply have their intuitive solutions into their muscle memory from doing them thousands of times, And please shut up and do some research before making these completely false statements

My OH rankings:
ZB-Roux (LEOR?)
Layout: starts with good intuitive block building and finishes with solving the DF and DB edges while orienting LL edges, ZBLL is used after to solve the rest.
Pros: uses R, U, r, M and F moves for the majority of the solve. has low movecount. Doesn't use that many M moves.
Cons: ZBLL is hard to learn, FB is not very ergonomic,

Roux
Layout: Starts with good intuitive block building, orient and permute last layer edges in one ergonomic alg solve the rest of the cube with M and U
Pros: uses R, U, r, F and M for most of the solve, has slightly higher movecount than ZB-Roux/LEOR
Cons: uses many M moves for the end of the solve. And has a higher movecount that ZB-Roux/LEOR

CFOP
Layout: Solve a cross, insert four F2L pairs, OLL, PLL
Pros: F2L is easy and will have a maximum of 4 rotations if done correctly, OLL and PLL are relatively easy to execute quickly,
Cons: Cross is the least ergonomic part of the solve with F and B moves being used not uncommonly, rotations are bad (but again maximum of 4), OLL is not ergonomic for OH.

ZZ
Layout: Do random moves at the beginning always containing an F or B, Solve DF and DB, solve the left block, Solve the right block, COLL, PLL
Pros: Second block uses R U, EPLL if you know COLL.
Cons: Uses RUL which is pretty bad for OH, EO line takes longer and is less ergonomic than cross.

ZB-Roux is different from LEOR

ZB-Roux - F2B, EOStripe, ZBLL
LEOR - FB, EOStripe, SB, ZBLL

 

[NevEr_QeyX]

Felix

lol didn't catch that