Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

Do you think this 4.41 time should count as WR?

  • Yes (it should count)

    Votes: 13 3.8%
  • No (it should not count)

    Votes: 117 34.6%
  • Up to the WCA, but hopefully Yes

    Votes: 5 1.5%
  • Up to the WCA, but hopefully No

    Votes: 188 55.6%
  • Do not care

    Votes: 15 4.4%

  • Total voters
    338
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The solve was done in an official competition, witnessed by a judge and approved by a delegate.

So what ? Kuti's cheated blindsolves were also done at an officiel comp, witnessed by a judge and approved by a delegate. That doesn't mean they were legit.
 
A post was made in the WCA forum here.

Good, that means that Feliks has no pressure to do a 4.40 this saturday :)

Before reading the WCA statement I thought that a unintentional misscramble with an easy solution was a possibility and that they should just DNF the solve and take no further action. After reading it all I must say I agree with the ban.
 
All everyone also has is speculation yet that stays here too.

Many of the posts in this thread dealt with figuring out solutions to the scramble that matched the competitor's given solution, as well showing how improbable the 4.41 would actually be under such circumstances. There were also posts that gathered statements from the involved parties.

But anyway, it's all over now. The solve is a DNF, and the punishment has been dealt.

Good day, Sir.
 
OK, there is a decision now and I think it's one most of us can accept. He has been found guilty of cheating and got a severe, but considering the nature of the cheating a fair penalty. But I still have a few questions:

What actually happened during the solve? From the WCA forum post, we can conclude that he didn't solve the cube using the series of improvised moves + J-perm that he claims. So, was the cube actually solved and where does the 4.41 come from? And were there other people involved? I find it hard to believe it's a one man action. He managed to get the judge to write down a highly improbable, if not impossible time for someone of his ability, got it entered onto the excel sheet, checked by de Delegate and sent off to the WCA as an official result. There's got to be more people involved in this. Will they be investigated and punished when their involvement is established?
 
Finally! Deserved the punishment he got. Can anyone try and recreate the solve in the fastest time possible, say someone really fast like 5BLD so we can see what the fastest time he could have got if he was a sub-10 averaged?
 
OK, there is a decision now and I think it's one most of us can accept. He has been found guilty of cheating and got a severe, but considering the nature of the cheating a fair penalty. But I still have a few questions:

What actually happened during the solve? From the WCA forum post, we can conclude that he didn't solve the cube using the series of improvised moves + J-perm that he claims. So, was the cube actually solved and where does the 4.41 come from? And were there other people involved? I find it hard to believe it's a one man action. He managed to get the judge to write down a highly improbable, if not impossible time for someone of his ability, got it entered onto the excel sheet, checked by de Delegate and sent off to the WCA as an official result. There's got to be more people involved in this. Will they be investigated and punished when their involvement is established?
I believe the investigation is finished. It is quite possible he could have done this alone, and I fail to see any evidence against others. The only way to find out whether others were involved would be if they admitted it or if Martin said so.
If I was the judge of this solve and noticed nothing odd apart from the fast time, I would write it down and sign it and then ensure the delegate was aware of the time.
If I was the delegate and noticed nothing odd apart from the fast time, I would submit it as a result to the WCA (with a warning that perhaps it should be investigated).
 
Good post on the WCA forum, logically put and it leaves nobody in any doubt that the competitor cheated. We now know that he was asked to provide his solution and lied again. (Did he really think that changing B2 to B' U' U B' at the end of the optimal solution would fool the WCA?) This was an important investigation and outcome for the credibility of speedcubing, and I commend the Board for their work on this.
 
That may not be possible directly, since the competitor may not remember what he did. But yeah, I get what you mean.
 
OK, there is a decision now and I think it's one most of us can accept. He has been found guilty of cheating and got a severe, but considering the nature of the cheating a fair penalty. But I still have a few questions:

What actually happened during the solve? From the WCA forum post, we can conclude that he didn't solve the cube using the series of improvised moves + J-perm that he claims. So, was the cube actually solved and where does the 4.41 come from? And were there other people involved? I find it hard to believe it's a one man action. He managed to get the judge to write down a highly improbable, if not impossible time for someone of his ability, got it entered onto the excel sheet, checked by de Delegate and sent off to the WCA as an official result. There's got to be more people involved in this. Will they be investigated and punished when their involvement is established?

Yes, so what actually happened during the solve. The reason why it isn't in the statement is because we can't prove it, but we have a very good guess as to what actually happened. What happened here is actually similar to something that happened at a Drexel University competition, I think it was February of 2008. Interestingly, the person involved there was known for posting videos of rehearsed solves and claiming them as actual solves...

What I think happened is that the competitor at Perry Open 2013, who had a history of posting videos of rehearsed solves and presenting them as normal solves, used a rehearsed scramble. If you put your cube down on your scramble sheet, and you put it down scrambled, a judge can easily mistake it for a scrambled cube and take it to the timer.

It's for this reason why at WC 2013, you should expect to put your SOLVED cube on a separate table away from the scramble table. And then one of the staff members will transport your solved cube to the scramble table. If cubes are allowed to be placed on the scramble table directly, which is sometimes done at smaller competitions, a scrambler might not see this. The scrambler's head is staring at the scramble sheet. Meanwhile, if a judge or runner comes by for a cube, that judge isn't checking the state of the cube, nor would he know the initial positions of all 5 scrambles and recognize something was amiss. He sees the scrambled cube and assumes it's scrambled correctly.

Oh... and another note. It is for this reason that in both cases, when there was one solve much much faster than the other solves of the competitor, it occurred on the first solve. After the first solve, you're no longer responsible for transporting your cube to the timer or to the scrambling table.

It's most logical to do what I described above with the first solve.

(And don't cheat this way. Please.)

(Though... there seems to be this pattern where for contentious posts, the conversation seems to die if I post anything... not that it's a bad thing in this case.)
 
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He escrito ésto antes de que se publicaran los resultados del torneo Perry Open.
No lo publique debido a que no quería se hablara más sobre el tema hasta que la WCA publicara su conclusión.
Antes que nada quiero agradecer a las personas que creyeron en mi y que me apoyaron (ayudandome en la reconstrucción, defendiendo mi persona y a los espectadores que brindaron evidencia).

A toda la comunidad del Cubo de Rubik:

Ya le he brindado toda la información, en lo que me concierne, de mi resolución a la WCA. Pero he de decirles que no hice trampa en mi solve, el cubo estuvo bien mezclado, no detuve el cronometro, no cambie el cubo, no se detuvo el cronometro, no engañe a mi juez y no me puse de acuerdo con él (ni si quiera sabía su nombre hasta el 25 de mayo) ni con ninguna persona.

No me considero el mejor cubero del mundo, ni siquiera de mi país. Creo que para eso existe el WR de promedio. Simplemente tuve mucha suerte, tal como a Mats Valk que si no hubiera tenido el Oll Skip su 5.55 sería mayor al 5.66 de Feliks Zemdegs o como Giovanni Contardi que siendo sub 19 logró un sub 10 (en la categoría de una mano), aunque creo que fui más afortunado, ya que siendo sub 15 logré un sub 5.

Al foro de México:

Creo que era inevitable que el rumor de un nuevo WR corriera por todo el mundo. Pero la forma en la que se publicarón muchas cosas no fue la correcta, entiendo que el humor mexicano sea negro (¡hasta nos reimos de cuando nos temblo y murieron personas en el año 1985!), pero considero que hubo personas que se portaron muy pendencieramente y también gente que habló ignorando los hechos, tales como que nadie vio mi resolución, que el timer se detuvo... etcetera. Nuestros administradores (del foro) debieron (tal vez) borrar algunas publicaciones que en lugar de ayudar causaban más polémica a la situación.

A la WCA:

No fue mi culpa el no haberme grabado durante mi 4.41. Entiendo que fue muy extraño lograr ese tiempo, como ya he repetido tuve suerte, más suerte aun que mi juez fuera Ernesto, uno de los cuberos de antaño (hasta donde entendí), y no un cubero nuevo. Creo que el que mi juez haya confirmado que mi solve fue valido debería ser de gran importacia y por eso lo siguiente:
1.- Ningún competidor de menor de 16 años de edad debería poder ser juez. Ésto porque sería mas propenso a que se le engañase.
2.- Que para ser juez o scrambler debe el competidor haber estado en dos competencias y haber pasado un año desde la primera.
3.- Que en cada competencia se lleve una lista de las personas que juecearon y mezclaron durante la competencia.
4.- Ya siendo un poco mas estricto (pero considero que sería bueno), que en la papeleta de registro de tiempos se firme quien está mezclando y quien está jueceando (deben ser personas distintas).

Se debería mejorar el reglamento ya que no engloba algunas cosas y se debería aprovechar que la World Rubik's Cube Championship 2013 se acerca.

Esto lo he escrito dado el veredicto de la WCA para la misma:
Quisiera y pido una conclusión real en la cual se sustenta y fundamenta el veredicto de DNF.
Una demostración Matemática donde se demuestre que es imposible llegar a la J (permutación) dando giros al azar. (probabilidad)
Una demostración biológica en la que se sustente que me hubiese sido imposible llegar a los 4.41 segundos.
Ahora bien la WCA dijo que por por mi falta de honradez..... yo no he hecho trampa, no tienen ninguna prueba de eso, por el principio de presunción de inocencia declaro que su decisión de amonestarme con la prohibición de participar en los eventos de la WCA hasta el 31 de diciembre del 2015 es inaceptable.
En ninguna parte de su reglamento se encuentran las sanciones a las que se haría acreedor el competidor que se le sorprenda....
Además quisiera se me enviaran las pruebas de mi falta de honradez y malicia durante el torneo.
Cito:
1.- " la solución no coincide con descripciones anteriores de la solución hecha por el competidor después de la competición." Como he dicho fueron al azar y no recuerdo que fue exactamente lo que hice, pero la solución que vi en el foro de México se me hizo muy similar a lo poco que recuerdo, no sabía de la existencia de cubeexplorer. Si use los terminos de F2l y triple xcross fue para dar a entender que fue lo que pasó durante la resolución, nunca dije haber hecho un triple xcross a la hora de hacer la cruz ni nada con respecto a hacer la cruz blanca, mi única descripción fue que los bloques (tres) del f2l quedaron hechos de dela cruz blanca para terminar (el f2l) con un R U R' (esto ya lo había publicado en este foro).
2.- " no se parece a ningún método de solución conocida". En ninguna parte de su reglamento estipula como debe armarse el cubo o si el método debe ser conocido o si no deben darse giros al azar.
3.- " la solución propuesta no parece susceptible de ejecutar en menos de 4,41 segundos, tal como se reivindica por el competidor, debido a las múltiples vueltas en cada cara del cubo.". Mi reconstrucción (como ya dije) no la recuerdo, solo me pareció muy similar.

Por último, seamos francos. El torneo no cumplió con todos los requerimientos del la WCA tales como:
7c ) Iluminación del área de competición debe prestar especial atención. La iluminación debe ser neutral, de manera que los competidores pueden distinguir fácilmente entre los colores de los puzzles.

7d + ) ADEMÁS La temperatura del área de competición debe ser de 21 a 25 grados Celsius.
por mencionar algunos.

PD: A pesar de que es un solve preparado .... es posible http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPDKzn5C7-8
 
Yes, so what actually happened during the solve. The reason why it isn't in the statement is because we can't prove it, but we have a very good guess as to what actually happened. What happened here is actually similar to something that happened at a Drexel University competition, I think it was February of 2008. Interestingly, the person involved there was known for posting videos of rehearsed solves and claiming them as actual solves...

What I think happened is that the competitor at Perry Open 2013, who had a history of posting videos of rehearsed solves and presenting them as normal solves, used a rehearsed scramble. If you put your cube down on your scramble sheet, and you put it down scrambled, a judge can easily mistake it for a scrambled cube and take it to the timer.

It's for this reason why at WC 2013, you should expect to put your SOLVED cube on a separate table away from the scramble table. And then one of the staff members will transport your solved cube to the scramble table. If cubes are allowed to be placed on the scramble table directly, which is sometimes done at smaller competitions, a scrambler might not see this. The scrambler's head is staring at the scramble sheet. Meanwhile, if a judge or runner comes by for a cube, that judge isn't checking the state of the cube, nor would he know the initial positions of all 5 scrambles and recognize something was amiss. He sees the scrambled cube and assumes it's scrambled correctly.

Oh... and another note. It is for this reason that in both cases, when there was one solve much much faster than the other solves of the competitor, it occurred on the first solve. After the first solve, you're no longer responsible for transporting your cube to the timer or to the scrambling table.

It's most logical to do what I described above with the first solve.

(And don't cheat this way. Please.)

Have other improvements to the scrambling table been thought out? Like a software that shows what the cube looks like after the said scramble? Then it would be easy for the scrambler to compare the said scrambled cube with what the software shows as the real scramble should be like. Just need 1 computer screen or smart phone and maybe someone to either make the software or find the software since something like it has already been made.
 
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