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Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

Do you think this 4.41 time should count as WR?

  • Yes (it should count)

    Votes: 13 3.8%
  • No (it should not count)

    Votes: 117 34.6%
  • Up to the WCA, but hopefully Yes

    Votes: 5 1.5%
  • Up to the WCA, but hopefully No

    Votes: 188 55.6%
  • Do not care

    Votes: 15 4.4%

  • Total voters
    338
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etshy

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WCA Board official announcement can be read here.

was the 3x3 WR really broken ? I read on Crazybadcuber's Facebook page about a mexican guy who did it in 4.41 secs !!!!!!!!!!!!!! Which personally I can't believe

Any info about this ?



I still can't believe it , but it looks like it's real .

edit 2: http://worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1053

edit (hijack):

more videos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UPDPZRZtYo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?&v=5XGfYydlovg (second solve)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJraOHeWU5w

Martín's WCA profile:http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/p.php?i=2011TELA01

Competition: http://worldcubeassociation.org/results/c.php?i=PerryOpen2013

Scorecard image: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=2873&d=1369626042

The scramble he should have received: F2 D2 B2 F2 R F2 L' D2 B U B2 R' F2 U' F' D' L D2

Martín's results for that round: (4.41) (18.90) 14.71 18.68 16.53 => 16.64


Important posts:


From the mexican forum:

The delegate:
"Ya envié los resultados, no tengo comentarios con respecto al solve de Martín, eso ya está en manos del board de la WCA"

Translation:
I have already sent the results, I have no comments on Martín's solve, this is already on the WCA board's hands


The competitor:
borre la publicación debido a que se podía dar a malos entendidos, en mi resolución me equivoque a la hora de ejecutar y después decidí improvisar algunos giros, me percate que dos pares del f2l estaban resueltos, así que decidí empezar a armar la cara blanca y en eso vi otro f2l resuelto, entonces busque el par restante que se resolvió con R U R' quedándome un oll skip y una J que resuelvo en menos de un segundo. la prerreconstrucciÓn (POSIBLE) de los primeros movimientos es esta D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL aunque no es pero es una aproximación, aun me encuentro trabajando en la verdadera reconstrucción pero es lo que hasta ahora he podido hacer. Mi juez y el delegado me preguntaron inmediatamente después de hacer el solve de como estaba el cubo (el patrón de la cruz amarilla que había decidido armar y el f2l) ( esto fue a mi parecer para revisar que el sramble fuese correcto) y se confirmo que mi resolución estuvo bien ejecutada con el scramble correcto.

Translation:
I erased the previous post because it could have been taken the wrong way, in my solve I made a mistake at the execution and then I decided to improvise some turns, I notieced that two f2l pairs were already solved, so I decided to start with the white face and then I saw another f2l pair solved, then I looked for the last pair which was solved with R U R', getting an OLL skip and a J perm that I solved in less than one second. The prereconstruction (POSSIBLE) of the first moves is this D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL although it is just an aproximation, I'm still working on the real reconstruction but this is what I've got so far. My judge and the delegate asked me immediately after the solve what was the state of the cube (the yellow cross pattern that I decided to solve and the f2l) (I guess this was to check if the scramble was the right one) and it was confirmed that the solve was executed correctly and the scramble was correct.
Hi everyone,

The WCA Board and IAC are in active discussion with Uriel, who was the delegate at this competition. Please bear with us.

There is not much that I can say right now, except that a 4.41 second solve was submitted in the official results, and that this is not believed to be a data entry error.

We will provide more information when it is appropriate to do so.

Thanks,
Tim
Just to clarify some things about the video. This was filmed after he solved the cube. In the video you can actually hear how he takes the cube from the table and "purposedly" scrambles it One Handed and after that they take pictures.
I dare to say that the mexican community is NOT claiming the WR. This guy has a history of cheating and in the very best case we would be talking about a badley scrambled cube.
anyway, he has also posted on the mexican page that he is "studying" papers on studies of the proof of the God's Algorithm. It seems to me that his "reconstruction" has turned to nothing more than a "fewest move" competition where he is trying to find a triple X-cross, and OLL skip and a J perm as he previously stated. I would guess that he is not going to be able to do it (thanks to qqref who has also proved it is impossible).

-Who Judged the WR-solve?
-Did anyone else saw the solve?
-Who Scrambled the Cube?
-Who printed the Scrambles?
1) Ernesto Mendoza Dimas, a cuber with experience in Mexico who takes competitions very seriously; he would die before cheating
2)Yes, theres 2 or 3 cubers claiming that they saw the solution and swearing what Martin Telésforo has said.
3)I don't know that, but Ernesto checked the scramble
4)Our delegate, Uriel Gayosso Ruiz
scramble: F2 D2 B2 F2 R F2 L' D2 B U B2 R' F2 U' F' D' L D2


D L' B R2 U L2 B' D' B U D2 L' D2 R U F2 y R U R' U2 Jperm


Optimal given his ending

there are other 16 move starts too the results for these give the same number of moves for the solution, vast majority are 17 moves or more though.

Implications are that he must have done at least 30 moves in 4.41 seconds which gives 6.8 tps. This is assuming he found the optimal solution and uses optimal Jperms also.
I overlooked 1 case which can be solved in 29 moves. It is a 16 move xxxcross and no AUF on the Jperm, but it gives the 'bad' Jperm. It is F R2 B L F D2 L2 D B' D' F2 R' D2 F' R2 F2.

However, looking more closely at the sources I believe we can conclude that his last layer was in fact yellow. The result from those cases gives the lower bound as 30 still.
video description said:
The claim is that the cube was solved using a triple x cross, R U R' last insertion, and a J perm.

The scramble: F2 D2 B2 F2 R F2 L' D2 B U B2 R' F2 U' F' D' L D2

I solved it using one of the optimal solutions given the constraints: D L' B R2 U L2 B' D' B U D2 L' D2 R U F2 y R U R' U2 Jperm

Of course this may not have been the exact solution, but I'm just showing how absurd it would be for someone to get a 4.41 on this scramble in an actual competition.

I could barely get under 4.41 despite trying over 100 times, already knowing the solution, and having absolutely 0 pauses for lookahead.

In my opinion there is absolutely no way someone could do this in a real competition without having cheated beforehand.
The Riviera Steak and Seafood place looks good. :p

But realistically there is no way he did this in 4.41 in the competition. This took me over 100 attempts, and I had perfect lookahead and execution.
He posted it on the mexican forum facebook group. Here:



Since everyone seems to be questioning everything, I took a couple of screens from things he posted on the forum himself. Here:



If you also doubt this, feel free to check the forum yourself or talk to him directly.

Here's some screens of what his judge said (another forum) about the solve and the competition for whoever is interested:



There's more but I'm busy and there's tons of posts so feel free to check for yourself. If you need anything translated let me know, but most things were already translated here and like I said, they're fine.

Links to the forums for whoever is interested:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/rubikmexico/ -> Where all of this was posted.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/cuboderubikenmexico/ -> Some comments from the judge.
Here:

First image: Translation already posted.

Second image:
1. The 3x3 WR (4.41) is right, I'm the one who broke it. Very short [solution]. To be honest I made a mistake, but it is right (i.e. truth). I'm working on the reconstruction right now.

2. In the solve, three blocks were solved, the last f2l was lucky, oll skip and a sub1 J perm.
-> Comment1: My error was during the blocks.

3. (same thing as before, but different forum).

4. Time to study: <link to paper>
-> Comments: All irrelevant but mentions he wants to do the reconstruction

Third image (judge):
1. [...] I was Martín's judge and the solve was very lucky. For me it, what happened was very lucky, although he mentioned he made a mistake during the cross. 4.41 is too low of a time to react [correct] a mistake. If he can reconstruct the solve, it will be official. Otherwise, I doubt it (i.e. "doubt", not official). As a judge, I evaluate that there was no mistake during the solve, but pre-solve [problems] must be verified, which will be discussed with the right people. [...]

2. I don't see it as a deal (i.e. bribe the scrambler), because Nitram (the scrambler) is a 12 years old boy who doesn't even think of this stuff, I know him. [...] (additional stuff about the general organization, such as mentioning two of the organizers never had been to a competition and such).

3. More stuff about the organization.

[...] = random stuff and ramblings about the organization.


Compilation: http://www.speedsolving.com/forum/showthread.php?42174-Mart%EDn-Tel%E9sforo-quot-4-41-single-quot-Perry-Open-Mexico&p=858285&viewfull=1#post858285
 
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qqwref

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There was no video of the solve, since obviously nobody expected him to beat the record. But it's obviously very suspicious for someone who got a 17 second average his last competition to suddenly get a 4 second time in competition. I think the two most likely possibilities are:
1) He somehow got an extremely easy misscramble, and got a ludicrously low movecount. In this case I would expect the same result as Grzegorz Prusak's Square-1 WR single - the result should be disqualified, hopefully with the cooperation of the cuber.
2) He received a setup scramble that he had already memorized a fast solution to, perhaps because he has a friend at the scrambling table. In this case I would expect some kind of punishment after the matter is investigated.
 

etshy

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There was no video of the solve, since obviously nobody expected him to beat the record. But it's obviously very suspicious for someone who got a 17 second average his last competition to suddenly get a 4 second time in competition. I think the two most likely possibilities are:
1) He somehow got an extremely easy misscramble, and got a ludicrously low movecount. In this case I would expect the same result as Grzegorz Prusak's Square-1 WR single - the result should be disqualified, hopefully with the cooperation of the cuber.
2) He received a setup scramble that he had already memorized a fast solution to, perhaps because he has a friend at the scrambling table. In this case I would expect some kind of punishment after the matter is investigated.
This proves what you're saying , he got a 18.9 secs solve after his 4.41 secs , definitely there is something very strange about this !!

 
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CubeRoots

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I agree, I find it pretty annoying that they did that. Why so serious. What is wrong with the thread?

I think it should definitely be discussed. It's not some kind of database mistake, it's a real person (and their community) claiming a real WR.
I agree. Why are you mods so serious?! Really, what qqwref said. This should be discussed, the thread should be open.
 
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Sa967St

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It looks like they were just pulling a prank, so IMO there's no need to bring more attention to it -- it would just make their prank more successful and give the idea that it's acceptable. I closed the thread because most of the posts would probably just be bashing the guy, anyway.

edit: Someone re-opened the thread and the posts from Random Cubing Discussion have been moved here.
 
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CubeRoots

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It looks like they were just pulling a prank, so IMO there's no need to bring more attention to it -- it would just make their prank more successful and give the idea that it's acceptable. I closed the thread because most of the posts would probably just be bashing the guy, anyway.
*looks like*?

-_-

Where is the evidence? What if this is a "genuine WR"?
 

mitch1234

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The average shouldn't even count anyway because of the score card.

485623_461537400599777_731380875_n.jpg

The judge signed all of the times before they even happened. At most of the competitions I've been to its okay if the competitor does this but if the judge does it there can be some really bad things.
 

Sa967St

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*looks like*?

-_-

Where is the evidence? What if this is a "genuine WR"?
I wrote "looks like" because "prank" might not be the right word. They might have done this for other reasons.

In any case, based on other discussions in other places, it's clearly not a legitimate WR. Just wait for people to confirm it.
 

wontolla

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From the mexican forum:

The delegate:
"Ya envié los resultados, no tengo comentarios con respecto al solve de Martín, eso ya está en manos del board de la WCA"

Translation:
I have already sent the results, I have no comments on Martín's solve, this is already on the WCA board's hands


The competitor:
borre la publicación debido a que se podía dar a malos entendidos, en mi resolución me equivoque a la hora de ejecutar y después decidí improvisar algunos giros, me percate que dos pares del f2l estaban resueltos, así que decidí empezar a armar la cara blanca y en eso vi otro f2l resuelto, entonces busque el par restante que se resolvió con R U R' quedándome un oll skip y una J que resuelvo en menos de un segundo. la prerreconstrucciÓn (POSIBLE) de los primeros movimientos es esta D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL aunque no es pero es una aproximación, aun me encuentro trabajando en la verdadera reconstrucción pero es lo que hasta ahora he podido hacer. Mi juez y el delegado me preguntaron inmediatamente después de hacer el solve de como estaba el cubo (el patrón de la cruz amarilla que había decidido armar y el f2l) ( esto fue a mi parecer para revisar que el sramble fuese correcto) y se confirmo que mi resolución estuvo bien ejecutada con el scramble correcto.

Translation:
I erased the previous post because it could have been taken the wrong way, in my solve I made a mistake at the execution and then I decided to improvise some turns, I notieced that two f2l pairs were already solved, so I decided to start with the white face and then I saw another f2l pair solved, then I looked for the last pair which was solved with R U R', getting an OLL skip and a J perm that I solved in less than one second. The prereconstruction (POSSIBLE) of the first moves is this D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL although it is just an aproximation, I'm still working on the real reconstruction but this is what I've got so far. My judge and the delegate asked me immediately after the solve what was the state of the cube (the yellow cross pattern that I decided to solve and the f2l) (I guess this was to check if the scramble was the right one) and it was confirmed that the solve was executed correctly and the scramble was correct.
 

pjk

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This is very suspicious indeed.

in my solve I made a mistake at the execution and then I decided to improvise some turns, I notieced that two f2l pairs were already solved, so I decided to start with the white face and then I saw another f2l pair solved, then I looked for the last pair which was solved with R U R', getting an OLL skip and a J perm that I solved in less than one second.

It seems like that entire process would take much more than 5 seconds, especially considering it sounds like the look-ahead was off. I'd be interested in seeing the scramble.

The average shouldn't even count anyway because of the score card.

View attachment 2873

The judge signed all of the times before they even happened. At most of the competitions I've been to its okay if the competitor does this but if the judge does it there can be some really bad things.
A bit off topic: I never understand why people do this. Do people realize the whole point of signing to to confirm the time is correct? It makes sense to sign them all at once at the end, but doing it at the beginning makes no sense.
 

Noahaha

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You can only really make an argument to DQ the last 3 solves though, since there's no way to prove that proper procedure wasn't followed for the first two.
 

ben1996123

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I doubt he could even get a triple xcross+OLL skip and solve sub5 if it wasnt a prepared solve.

You can only really make an argument to DQ the last 3 solves though, since there's no way to prove that proper procedure wasn't followed for the first two.
he didnt sign the score card when he should have done
 

CubeRoots

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CBC is going off a comment on the video. This comment is a 'translation' of the title... saying that the title says 'not official'. However the proper translation was 'still not official'.

Still no evidence to suggest this isn't a real claim of a WR.
 

hcfong

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I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions too soon.

- Nothing's posted on the WCA website yet.
- The scoresheet shown in one of the posts might not be the real scoresheet. It may just be a lolsheet created to support a prank, and not the scoresheet that's been used for score entry.
- Following from this, the 4.41 might not actually be on the results sent to the WCA. In that case, there is no problem. It is allowed to pull a prank and have a laugh.
- If however, the scoresheet with the 4.41, was the official scoresheet and the 4.41 was included in in the results, I think it should be accepted as official in the first instance. There is no direct evidence yet that it was fake. The result is there. People can then dispute it at the IAC,who will investigate the matter. They can collect witness statements from competitors. And as the scrambles have to be sent to the WCA along with the results, they can ask him to reconstruct the solve. Of course, the competitor himself may come forward, which is probaby the best way for him to come clean.

So I'd say, let's wait for the results to be posted. I think it's going to be a lot less dramatic than we all think it is. I think the scoresheet shown is just a lolsheet to support a prank and the real scoresheet doesn't contain the 4.41.
 

Faz

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I think it should definitely be discussed. It's not some kind of database mistake, it's a real person (and their community) claiming a real WR.
Yeah, I'd been sent a few tweets about this yesterday, and was wondering why there was no mention of it here. So of course, I didn't really think anything of it.

I think we shouldn't jump to conclusions too soon.
I think the scoresheet shown is just a lolsheet to support a prank and the real scoresheet doesn't contain the 4.41.
That does seem like one of the more likely scenarios, in which case it's been a success for them I guess.
But if it's not, and he is legitimately claiming this as a world record, then I think that this becomes a very serious issue. If the WCA has no evidence against him, then we'll have a world record holder whose second best solve is 15 seconds, which would seriously undermine the credibility and legitimacy of the WCA, and speedcubing as a sport/hobby.
But until then, it seems like a practical joke by the Mexican community.

Did he even win the competition? :p
 
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