Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

[Dene]

It's rather stupid if you don't vote for the 3rd or 4th choice.

Why is that? If this is, for example, blatant cheating, then it isn't up to the WCA (in any meaningful sense). If it's clearly cheating then it clearly should not count, i.e. option 2.

 

[TMOY]

There are three possibilities:
1) he did 4.41 honestly on the correct scramble: the time should count;
2) he did 4.41 honestly on the wrong scramble: the time shouldn't count;
3) he cheated: the time shouldn't count.

For me 1) is excluded because of all that's been said before, and even if I can't decide between 2) and 3), in both cases the time shouldn't count. Hence I voted option 2, and I don't see why it's stupid either.

 

[MichaelErskine]

There are three possibilities:

Exactly what François said, however I voted "don't care" (although I seem to be checking this thread quite regularly so I think it does really matter to my sense of justice in the sport I love!)

 

[Ickathu]

There are three possibilities:
1) he did 4.41 honestly on the correct scramble: the time should count;
2) he did 4.41 honestly on the wrong scramble: the time shouldn't count;
3) he cheated: the time shouldn't count.

For me 1) is excluded because of all that's been said before, and even if I can't decide between 2) and 3), in both cases the time shouldn't count. Hence I voted option 2, and I don't see why it's stupid either.

I disagree with 2). If it was the wrong scramble, as long as it wasn't a set-up scramble, then it's the scrambler's fault, not Martin's. Martin shouldn't get penalized (DNF) for something that he didn't do. (i.e., if the scrambler and Martin agreed on a scramble beforehand to fake a WR - DNF. If the scrambler did something like B instead of B' in the scramble [read it/executed it incorrectly], then it should still count).

 

[mDiPalma]

If the scrambler did something like B instead of B' in the scramble [read it/executed it incorrectly], then it should still count.

4g) After scrambling a puzzle, the scrambler must verify that he has scrambled the puzzle correctly. If the puzzle state is wrong, he must correct it (e.g. by solving the puzzle and applying the scramble sequence again).

 

[Goosly]

Martin shouldn't get penalized (DNF) for something that he didn't do. (...) If the scrambler did something like B instead of B' in the scramble [read it/executed it incorrectly], then it should still count).

Ok, maybe next time I scramble Mats' cube I will 'misread' the scramble and just do 2 random moves. It should count, cos its my fault (according to your logic), right?

 

[Kirjava]

I disagree with 2). If it was the wrong scramble, as long as it wasn't a set-up scramble, then it's the scrambler's fault, not Martin's. Martin shouldn't get penalized (DNF) for something that he didn't do. (i.e., if the scrambler and Martin agreed on a scramble beforehand to fake a WR - DNF. If the scrambler did something like B instead of B' in the scramble [read it/executed it incorrectly], then it should still count).

If anything he should just get an extra attempt in this instance.

There's no reason for the time to be kept if it wasn't scrambled correctly. We need to ensure the cube was in the provided state for the solve, otherwise the incorrect state will create an unfair disparity. This is one of the reasons why we have scrambles.

 

[AustinReed]

Why is that? If this is, for example, blatant cheating, then it isn't up to the WCA (in any meaningful sense). If it's clearly cheating then it clearly should not count, i.e. option 2.

Like you said previously, the WCA isn't a democracy, but it serves the community. I, for one, am not entirely sure if there is enough proof to just say that this is completely fake (although the odds for the solve aren't looking very good). No matter what the WCA decides to do, I'll still respect their decision. They would've had something that told them it was fake/legit.

I think things would be a bit more chaotic if the WCA didn't do anything, so I still believe that it's kinda stupid that it should have just been declared fake on the spot without further questioning. Imagine if, by chance, this is somehow legit and the guy receives unwarranted consequences. The WCA board knows more than we do, so we'll have to trust that they make the right decision.

 

[Ickathu]

4g) After scrambling a puzzle, the scrambler must verify that he has scrambled the puzzle correctly. If the puzzle state is wrong, he must correct it (e.g. by solving the puzzle and applying the scramble sequence again).

If anything he should just get an extra attempt in this instance.

There's no reason for the time to be kept if it wasn't scrambled correctly. We need to ensure the cube was in the provided state for the solve, otherwise the incorrect state will create an unfair disparity. This is one of the reasons why we have scrambles.

I guess that's a good point. I forgot about rule 4g. I thought that 4g1 (well, the equivalent of it) was for all cube sizes - it just had to be approved by the delegate if misscrambled.
4g1) Exception: For the 6x6x6 Cube and the 7x7x7 Cube, it is not necessary to correct the scramble, at the discretion of the WCA Delegate.

 

[Stefan]

Did hundreds of posts from this thread get deleted? What the hell? Why was that not done before I wasted my time reading them???

 

[Sa967St]

Did hundreds of posts from this thread get deleted? What the hell? Why was that not done before I wasted my time reading them???

Over 300 posts have been deleted over the last few days. About 100 were deleted just last night. Thread clean-ups take a while, especially since there have been about 5 instances of them here.

IMO it's very important that this thread is readable and easy to search through, since it has an impact on the WCA's decision.

 

[Carrot]

IMO it's very important that this thread is readable and easy to search through, since it has an impact on the WCA's decision.

I might have missed a post where WCA declared that they would take this discussion into account. (but I agree that it might have an impact)

 

[Kit Clement]

While I do think that the opinion of the people should have an impact on the upcoming WCA decision, I do think that a broader range of people should be considered since we all compose a world organization, not just the English speaking Speedsolving.com community. Is there a good/active Mexican speedcubing forum? I'm interested to hear the opinions of those from the home country, especially those who attended the competition. While the opinions should be taken with a grain of salt considering national pride, they should still be considered. And if it was a cheat/prank, I'm sure it wasn't a collaborative effort by everyone there.

 

[Stefan]

IMO it's very important that this thread is readable and easy to search through

Just in case it wasn't clear: I agree

I also just noticed you put some of the interesting bits into the first post. Thanks. Someone did a summary post somewhere in the middle, all that stuff (and a little more since then) would be good in the first post as well.

 

[Litz]

While I do think that the opinion of the people should have an impact on the upcoming WCA decision, I do think that a broader range of people should be considered since we all compose a world organization, not just the English speaking Speedsolving.com community. Is there a good/active Mexican speedcubing forum? I'm interested to hear the opinions of those from the home country, especially those who attended the competition. While the opinions should be taken with a grain of salt considering national pride, they should still be considered. And if it was a cheat/prank, I'm sure it wasn't a collaborative effort by everyone there.

They mainly use two facebook groups which I already posted a few pages back. They're quite active, at least in one of them. As for the opinions, most people (specially known solvers) do think it's fake. However, there's also some people who think the WCA has something against them just because they're Mexicans.

 

[raulsocal]

They mainly use two facebook groups which I already posted a few pages back. They're quite active, at least in one of them. As for the opinions, most people (specially known solvers) do think it's fake. However, there's also some people who think the WCA has something against them just because they're Mexicans.

A lot of people believe that the world goes against them... however i think the WCA and the "rubik" world is the most non-discriminating "sport"/diversion/(for each one of us is a diferent thing) competition that i have ever known... it doesnt matter if you are from one place or from another, tall, short, ugly, beautiful, white, black, smart, dummy... any kind of things that may be a focus of discriminization its not present in any spanish rubik competition and i believe its not either in any world wide rubik competition. Also taking in consideration between countries i hope... i dont know why beeing Mexican would be a problem for the WCA.

Going straight my opinion with the topic: I dont think that Martin will read this, however if he reads this. Congratulations if this solve was legit and following all the rules, with all my heart.

By the way, and i hope that its not true... just because he will be in a nice big hole of sh**, if the solve was cheating... you merit a nice sanction and i believe all the people will remember you a way that you will not quite like.

The WCA rules, and even if a lot of people dont like that... maybe he really did the 4.41... however in case of a bad scramble, it has happened as we all know, the competitor should resign to the WR. Its what i think... its not gods words.

 

[Litz]

A lot of people believe that the world goes against them...

I agree and it's just that really. The same thing would happen were it any other country.

 

[Sa967St]

Just in case it wasn't clear: I agree

I also just noticed you put some of the interesting bits into the first post. Thanks. Someone did a summary post somewhere in the middle, all that stuff (and a little more since then) would be good in the first post as well.

Just finished thread clean-up #6. Hopefully this'll be the last one.

I also added a lot more info in the first post.

 

[Mikel]

Over 300 posts have been deleted over the last few days. About 100 were deleted just last night. Thread clean-ups take a while, especially since there have been about 5 instances of them here.

IMO it's very important that this thread is readable and easy to search through, since it has an impact on the WCA's decision.

Maybe you should move this thread to the private forum?

 

[Sa967St]

Maybe you should move this thread to the private forum?

I thought about doing that a few days ago, but there might be people who would can provide good information about this situation (e.g. people who were at the competition), that aren't experienced enough to be in the Private Forum.