Having trouble relating to the cubing community

[Kirjava]

So what? All that needs to happen is that we tell him we have no problem and accept him. What more to this than that is there?

 

[rowan]

Having social anxiety doesn't make you qualified to diagnose someone with it.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Having social anxiety doesn't make you qualified to diagnose someone with it.

I'm unqualified to give him a label like "social anxiety disorder," which is a diagnosis. However, I don't think any qualifications are required to say that he seems socially anxious in a way that describes a limited set of behaviors. It's a very general term. Do you have to be a psychiatrist to notice things about people? It's not that subtle. He thinks he's more different and more separated from the community than the rest of us perceive him to be. Nearly everyone who replied to this thread noticed that. That's a very common trait in socially anxious people; feeling like you're sticking out in a negative way more than you actually are. Noticing what I did about him isn't much more complicated psychologically than noticing that a person is talkative, or quiet, or funny, or something like that. You don't have to be more than a normal person to do what I did; you don't need a qualification. Having social anxiety that is NOT the result of a mental disorder, but is just the result of your surroundings, or how you've been treated, is something that most people struggle with sometime in their lives. That's all I was referring to.

Kir, I haven't thought of a way to reply to your post that conveys all of what I mean, but no, that's not all there is to it at all. By comparison, think of someone with a fear of public speaking. Even if the audience they're speaking for assures them that it's no problem if they mess up, they're still going to be afraid of everything going wrong. The same thing is true of people with social anxiety. Just because the person you're talking to says that they accept you doesn't mean that you won't do something so repellent that the person has no choice but to hate you. It's very irrational, and people who are like that are their own harshest critics regardless of whether or not the people around them noticed anything at all.

Simply telling someone that you accept them often barely scratches the surface of actually making them feel accepted. Plus, your earlier statements that he was being pessimistic and histrionic, combined with half a dozen statements from others that "I don't care about your sexuality" throughout this thread, might speak louder to him about whether or not he is accepted than your most recent words.

Rowan, I'm not assuming that all or any of these things are definitely true about Johnny. But they are possibilities, and I'd rather consider these things and later find out that I was wrong than have the only "help" he gets from this thread be "you're not as different as you think, we don't care about your sexuality, and you're being pessimistic. Oh and by the way, we accept you." I'm not confident I interpreted Johnny correctly, but if I share my thoughts on what I think might be the problems, and possible solutions for those problems, it's food for thought for him regardless of whether I interpreted him 100% correctly or not. It's also more interactive with him than being as dismissive of his concerns as most of the people in this thread have been, and that's important since his initial concern was lack of interaction with the community.

 

[Kirjava]

Kir, I haven't thought of a way to reply to your post that conveys all of what I mean, but no, that's not all there is to it at all. By comparison, think of someone with a fear of public speaking. Even if the audience they're speaking for assures them that it's no problem if they mess up, they're still going to be afraid of everything going wrong. The same thing is true of people with social anxiety. Just because the person you're talking to says that they accept you doesn't mean that you won't do something so repellent that the person has no choice but to hate you. It's very irrational, and people who are like that are their own harshest critics regardless of whether or not the people around them noticed anything at all.

Simply telling someone that you accept them often barely scratches the surface of actually making them feel accepted. Plus, your earlier statements that he was being pessimistic and histrionic, combined with half a dozen statements from others that "I don't care about your sexuality" throughout this thread, might speak louder to him about whether or not he is accepted than your most recent words.

If this person is as fragile as you are making out, I don't advise him to post on the forum at all.

 

[rowan]

He spoke a total of 156 words in this entire thread and got psychoanalyzed.

I think this thread took a completely ridiculous, inappropriate, and rude direction, imo. He asked for advice on relating to the cubing community and got people telling him he lacked social skills, has social anxiety, is attention seeking, is playing a victim card, and a whole other load of unnecessarily cutting comments.

He said he has trouble relating to the cubing community and gave background as to why he feels that way which for him is his sexuality. He made it clear that he is not calling the community homophobic (even though he was later accused of this) and wasn't even seeking sympathy for his sexuality. All he wanted was advice on how others find ways to relate when they feel different. Why does it matter if he wanted to mention that he was gay or not? Who cares? Why is it making everyone so uncomfortable that he mentioned it? If you truly don't care about his sexuality I'd expect that you'd not have a negative reaction to his mentioning of it.

As a side note in general: It is not unusual for people who are minorities to feel something called social exclusion. (I like sociology a lot.) This is a well documented phenomena amongst LGBT people and other groups, here's a study about LGBT youth in Europe, and not surprisingly invisibility is part of what contributes to social exclusion. So not talking about sexuality doesn't help the situation, it continues alienation in some ways. Because a lot of times, if someone doesn't clarify that they aren't straight, they are assumed to be. For some people, part of feeling included in a community is being able to talk about these things openly.

Also, everyone's way of viewing the world is shaped by their identities and in turn their experiences. So it's not completely off base for some people to think that they'd relate better to other queer people, because a lot of the experiences that they face are unique to their situation. While I could learn about the way that someone in... I don't know, Texas lives, it's still not the same as being from there and having those lived experiences, there's a limit to how much of their experiences I can really understand. It's not a bad thing, it's not an offensive thing, at least for me, it's just how things are. Human communication can only do so much, but having similar lived experiences is a whole other thing.

 

[Kirjava]

He spoke a total of 156 words in this entire thread and got psychoanalyzed.

I love that you counted for the sake of that sentence.

 

[Stefan]

If you truly don't care about his sexuality I'd expect that you'd not have a negative reaction to his mentioning of it.

Why? That's different things.

 

[rowan]

Why? That's different things.

You would never know he was gay unless he mentioned it; mostly because there's an assumption of heterosexuality in society (see: heternormativity and compulsory heterosexuality). This can even be seen here in SS with the thread: "What does your girlfriend think of cubing?"

It's essentially required for gay people to identify themselves as such lest they appear to not exist. This is why "coming out" exists; straight people usually don't have to do this because it's already assumed. If you are against gay people mentioning their sexuality in any context it makes me question how comfortable you are with their sexuality to begin with, since self-identification is an important part of LGBT visibility.

 

[Stefan]

You would never know he was gay unless he mentioned it

I would equally not know someone was straight unless they mentioned it.

This can even be seen here in SS with the thread: "What does your girlfriend think of cubing?"

Yeah the presentation of that one could certainly be better.

It's essentially required for gay people to identify themselves as such lest they appear to not exist.

I really don't understand.

If you are against gay people mentioning their sexuality in any context it makes me question how comfortable you are with their sexuality to begin with

Do you mean if I'm against it in at least one context, or if I'm against it in all contexts?

I'm against it in some contexts. But that's probably the case for everything. There are also contexts where I'd have something against people mentioning good stuff of me (and I certainly don't have anything against good stuff of me).

Gay couple holding hands or kissing in public next to me for example, if anything, makes me happy. For living in a day and age where they can. I'm also still subscribed to Zinnia Jones, quite active and public transgender, and it's visible on my channel. I really don't think I have a problem with stuff like this in general.

 

[rowan]

I really don't understand.

If LGBT people don't mention they are LGBT, they are assumed to be straight, as I mentioned in my previous comment. Perhaps you do not do this in particular, but most people do. I already mentioned examples of this above so I won't repeat myself; I don't feel the need to argue this point, I doubt you disagree with me that straight is presumed to be the "norm" in society.

I have a question: why did bother you that Johnny mentioned he was gay then?

It seemed (to me) he was providing background as to why he didn't relate to the community. My reaction to someone commenting that they are gay, an innocuous comment, isn't usually anything...? Maybe I'll mention I'm queer too, but usually I don't react. Your reaction seemed rather negative and dismissive: "Nobody cares." Also potentially hurtful, it takes some people years to come to terms with something like this, and your comment isn't something I'd expect for someone who seems so accepting.

 

[Dene]

Why shouldn't people assume others to be straight? People that are in the group of LGBTIQ identifiers are amongst the significant minority. It would be irrational not to assume heterosexuality unless otherwise.


Anyway, perhaps Johnny is struggling to relate to the cubing community because he almost never posts here. Perhaps if he were more involved he'd relate to us more.

 

[rowan]

I didn't want to derail this thread but I promise I just felt compelled to respond, opps.

Why shouldn't people assume others to be straight? People that are in the group of LGBTIQ identifiers are amongst the significant minority. It would be irrational not to assume heterosexuality unless otherwise.

It's not necessary to assume anyone's sexuality. If there's some reason you require the information, you could just ask. The problems with assuming heterosexuality seem obvious enough to me: it alienates LGBT+ people. I would expand on what that means, but I trust that it's fairly self explanatory. It would be irrational to assume that everyone was queer, it's perfectly rational to not assume anything.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

If this person is as fragile as you are making out, I don't advise him to post on the forum at all.

Did you even read the bottom part of my message? These are generalizations about people with social anxiety. Not necessarily about him. And no, I don't think he, or most people with anxiety, are that fragile. Just wanted to contrast how overly simplistic and insufficient your solution was with that. Shyness or anxiety or whatever is a spectrum. Having been discriminated against and having a changed social persona as a result of that (which he said himself) is not the extreme of anxiety that I described, but it's also not fixable with "just tell him we accept him and have done with it," which is what you said. I wanted to point out the opposite extreme to show that there's also a lot of gray area, and I think timidity from discrimination/bullying falls in that gray area.

 

[Kirjava]

Please explain to me what should be done.

 

[Stefan]

they are assumed to be straight

I guess I just don't see why that's bad. Conversely, I've said things where I "risked" people assuming I'm gay, or other things I'm not, including bad things. I mostly only mind and clarify when it's something bad and has serious downsides.

Perhaps you do not do this in particular

Well, if for some reason I do assume one or the other and have no information about them, of course I assume they're straight. Much higher probability.

I have a question: why did bother you that Johnny mentioned he was gay then?

Did it?

It seemed (to me) he was providing background as to why he didn't relate to the community. My reaction to someone commenting that they are gay, an innocuous comment, isn't usually anything...? Maybe I'll mention I'm queer too, but usually I don't react.

Yeah, that's probably better. And I acknowledge that neither the thread title, nor the actual question mention being gay, and that he did say early on that "People on this forum have been great".

Your reaction seemed rather negative and dismissive: "Nobody cares."

As said earlier and as should have been clear from the whole (short) post, I meant a negative kind of care. And yes, instead of "Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia" I could have said something like "Don't worry, this community doesn't have a problem with gays, there's no reason to think there is". Same thing, really. Just not my style.

 

[Stefan]

It's not necessary to assume anyone's sexuality. If there's some reason you require the information, you could just ask.

If you pursue a love interest, aren't you making an assumption about their sexuality? And yeah right, you'll just ask... that totally won't turn anybody off.

The problems with assuming heterosexuality seem obvious enough to me: it alienates LGBT+ people. I would expand on what that means, but I trust that it's fairly self explanatory.

I really don't see it. Is heterosexuality some kind of insult? And the assumption by itself can't alienate (unless you can read minds). Can you maybe give an example of something said or done that would alienate?

 

[rowan]

Heterosexuality isn't an insult. Please don't try to shift that onto me. I guess assuming alone in your head and never expressing it out loud isn't harmful. The assumption is only alienating if you vocalize it, yes. I suppose I could have clarified this but I felt it was fairly reasonable to assume that's what I meant.

As for a love interest: I have always known someone well enough before "pursuing" them to know whether or not they'd be attracted to me. If I didn't I would ask. What's more of a turn off than being open about your background is being pursued by someone you would never date to begin with.

The fact that you can't see why being assumed to be straight can alienate someone says volumes. But, I will offer hypotheticals:

Any assumption that someone who is female has a male partner or vice versa is just a subtle reminder that they are an "other" which is obviously isolating for people. It's nice to use language that is more inclusive for people and doesn't assume that they are straight. It's something small but can go a long way in letting people feel welcome. You could say "partner" or "spouse." Most people don't bother.

It can also be more tangibly damaging. I'll give an example. At least in the United States, sexual health taught in public schools is taught as if straight sex is the only sort of sex that is ever going to happen, the assumption that all people are straight leads to higher risk of unprotected sex amongst LGBT+ populations. And, not to mention, it reinforces the idea that LGBT+ people are not "normal."

inb4 "LGBT+ people are still a minority so why not keep things the same," it is not hard to make language and sexual education more inclusive of LGBT+ people, it's really easy. (I'm also not sure if LGBT+ would be as much of a minority as they are if homophobia wasn't so intense. I go to a really inclusive and LGBT+ friendly campus and you'd be surprised the amount of people who come in straight and leave something else because they are finally in a place that is actually welcoming/open about sexuality.)

 

[Stefan]

Heterosexuality isn't an insult. Please don't try to shift that onto me.

Didn't mean to, sorry. Was just a way of asking what's bad about being assumed being it.

The assumption is only alienating if you vocalize it, yes. I suppose I could have clarified this but I felt it was fairly reasonable to assume that's what I meant.

Was just a preamble to my actual question to emphasize what I'm asking for. I guess it was unnecessary, sorry.

What's more of a turn off than being open about your background is being pursued by someone you would never date to begin with.

Don't know what's the bigger turn off, but that's missing the point anyway. If I assume, and am correct (which I very likely am), then neither of those two turn offs happens. But if I ask, then one of them happens right there.

Not going into the rest cause I just promised myself to stay clear of such discussions. But thank you for trying to help me understand it.

 

[IRNjuggle28]

Please explain to me what should be done.

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but IMO, just talk to him in ways that invite conversation, instead of ways that repel it. That's all. Saying "we accept you" in ways that are blunt and imply that he is at fault for something is unhelpful even if it's accurate. Examples of what not to do below.

Nobody cares. I think you have homophobiaphobia.

Nobody cares if you're gay.

You're not special.

Go to competitions and be a normal person, not some attention-seeking guy on the internet.

This Community? You seem to be making us all out to be homophobes based off of nothing, which is probably going to offend some people, myself included.
Stop playing the victim card and intentionally trying to alienate yourself from people who would otherwise would welcome you with open arms, regardless of your sexuality.

 

[Kirjava]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but IMO, just talk to him in ways that invite conversation, instead of ways that repel it. That's all.

I think it's pathetic that I'm being told that saying we're accepting and he will have no problem is not enough or incorrect.

He's not even posting anymore, and might not even care - you're just speaking for him at this point.

How much do we have to tip toe around this thing to gratify your armchair psychologist standards?!