Genetics / Natural Talent vs Hard Work / Practice

[turtwig]

I think what it's trying to say is that if you see that you're good at something, you'll be motivated to do more, which I believe is true.

 

[stoic]

I think what it's trying to say is that if you see that you're good at something, you'll be motivated to do more, which I believe is true.

Agreed.
I also believe that.
Although, I believe that if you see that you're bad at something you'll be motivated to do more, so...:confused:

 

[turtwig]

Agreed.
I also believe that.
Although, I believe that if you see that you're bad at something you'll be motivated to do more, so...:confused:

But if you're bad, you might just go do something else.

 

[tseitsei]

If people say you are.

What people?

Someone who hasn't ever solved a cube?
Someone who averages ~50s?
Someone who is sub-10?
Me?
You?

Everyone of those people will (probably) have a different view on what really is considered world class.
But that really isn't a topic of this thread so I'll try to stop derailing it now...

 

[Ordway Persyn]

I think that if there is any "natural" advantage, its very small. Also any "natural" advantage may not be natural. Anyone who is, lets say, an avid Gamer likely has faster cognitive and more dexterity than someone who is not, and in turn if they started they would have a small advantage over others. you may think that he/she has "naturally" faster reflexes when in reality he/she gained them. I also think that the age at which you start could also have an Impact. obviously when you're 40+ years old you start to lose cognitive abilities and dexterity. When your young, your mind is more flexible and it's easier to learn things. also as many people have said, the way you practice and the amount also affects whether you can be sub 20 in a year or wether your sub 10 in a year. There are a lot of variables that could determine how fast you'll Improve.

 

[CubeWizard23]

1% inspiration 99% perspiration

the US memory champion, as an example, 5-6 years ago had a terrible memory, he couldn't even find his keys, today he can memorize and entire deck of cards in ~ 30 sec.

different methods work for different people, some are kinesthetic learners some auditory some visual. some people have photographic memory.

But people, the day i believe that i can't ever get as good as others is the day that i stop cubing.

@dene running is totally different, usain bolt is like 6'6", his legs are longer than most people.

@whoever said no one has been cubing for 10+ years, chris hardwick has been

 

[CubeWizard23]

and some people have longer fingers

use a smaller cube. or a bigger one if your hands are too big for the cube that was designed for people with avg size hands.

cubes are scaleable, the mile tho is the same distance for someone who is 5'5" and for someone who is 6'6"

 

[tseitsei]

If a lot of people agree that you are, than you are. Being "world class" doesn't really matter anyway.

Well I know a lot of people (who have never solved the cube) who would agree that anyone sub-30 is definitely world class.

Also it kind of matters if we are arguing about "Can anyone be world class cuber if they just practise enough?"

 

[Rubiks560]

Seriously, genetics play such a small role in this.

I believe genetics matter for becoming the ABSOLUTE best, but I think it makes up *maybe* 1% of that person.
The majority of it comes down to how you practice. Also, Dene's argument about reaction times is ridiculous. Saying "my reaction time is 260ms so I can't get faster" you can train reaction time. You *might* have a limit to what your reaction time can be, but I bet it isn't 260 for your hard cap. And for all you know, Feliks' reaction time is slower than yours. A lot of it is prediction based anyway. Predict cross+1 during inspection, and now you have 12+ moves that you don't need to look at the cube. During those 12+ moves you can track other F2L pairs. I'm sure reaction speed does play a part in cubing, but certainly not a large role.

 

[tseitsei]

Seriously, genetics play such a small role in this.

I believe genetics matter for becoming the ABSOLUTE best, but I think it makes up *maybe* 1% of that person.

I agree but then we are talking about world class here. So genetics/talent starts to matter...

I can almost guarantee you that I could practise 8 hours a day for the next 20 years and wouldn't be world class. I would be considerably faster than I am now of course but I really much doubt I would be for example sub-8.

I believe that anyone can get to around 10s if they REALLY want to put in the effort needed. Some get there easily in their first year or two but for others it takes more effort and time than they probably are willing to sacrifice. But for something like global 8s average I think you need some talent/genetics/whatever you want to call it to be able to recognize and execute the correct algs at that speed...

 

[GuRoux]

I agree but then we are talking about world class here. So genetics/talent starts to matter...

I can almost guarantee you that I could practise 8 hours a day for the next 20 years and wouldn't be world class. I would be considerably faster than I am now of course but I really much doubt I would be for example sub-8.

I believe that anyone can get to around 10s if they REALLY want to put in the effort needed. Some get there easily in their first year or two but for others it takes more effort and time than they probably are willing to sacrifice. But for something like global 8s average I think you need some talent/genetics/whatever you want to call it to be able to recognize and execute the correct algs at that speed...

i think you are totally underestimating yourself. 8 hours a day for 20 years is so much time. you could master zbll even, have perfect lookahead, and i would assume super tps.

 

[tseitsei]

i think you are totally underestimating yourself. 8 hours a day for 20 years is so much time. you could master zbll even, have perfect lookahead, and i would assume super tps.

CFOP averages ~60 moves so sub-8 means ~7.5tps. There are only a few LL algs where I can reach that TPS not to mention during F2L or cross... Now obviously that would improve with practise. But I really doubt that I could be able to execute (most) PLLs in under 1s (the speed that world clas cubers currently do it). I could be wrong of course since I haven't practised for 20 years 8 hours a day but I doubt that...

 

[turtwig]

That's almost 60,000 hours. You seriously don't think that you can get sub-8 with 60,000 hours of practice? If you were to do 8 hours a day you could easily plan out your day with slow solving time, alg learning time, and timed solves to maximize improvement rates. Even if you just did timed solves I think you could achieved sub-8 in less than 5 years.

 

[adimare]

ITT: realists vs people who think Feliks is faster than them only because he's cubed for a few more hours... :rolleyes:

 

[Sajwo]

CFOP averages ~60 moves so sub-8 means ~7.5tps. There are only a few LL algs where I can reach that TPS not to mention during F2L or cross... Now obviously that would improve with practise. But I really doubt that I could be able to execute (most) PLLs in under 1s (the speed that world clas cubers currently do it). I could be wrong of course since I haven't practised for 20 years 8 hours a day but I doubt that...

CFOP is ~55 moves on average, that is quite a difference. I see your point, I don't think either that I am capable of sub8. But if I could start fresh and forget everything that I learned for all these years in cubing, I think sub8 wouldn't be a problem in a few years. I have many bad habits that are almost impossible to fix at this moment

 

[turtwig]

Reality: Some people are born smarter than others, some are born stronger than others, and some are born better at cubing.
You can say all you want that practice enough and you'll become as good as Feliks, but do you think that anyone could just work hard and be as smart as Einstein? Or faster than Usain Bolt?

 

[shadowslice e]

Reality: Some people are born smarter than others, some are born stronger than others, and some are born better at cubing.
You can say all you want that practice enough and you'll become as good as Feliks, but do you think that anyone could just work hard and be as smart as Einstein? Or faster than Usain Bolt?

No. Those are the absolute best. Surpassing perhaps even world class cause they're so much better than everyone else and so clearly have some genetic advantage required to reach that level.

However, world class is a slightly different matter for cubing as it is a far more select group than (for example) running or swimming.

 

[Arkwell]

I don't think so. You can practise sprinting as much as you like, you'll never outrun Usain Bolt unless you have the genetics. Feliks has a brain that processes this particular ability better than most (taking in patterns, processing combinations, working out a solution, and sending that information to the fingers). That, combined with a lot of practise, made him by far better than anyone else. To match him would take the combination of natural ability with an enormous amount of practise.

Dene, I agree with you. There are scientific studies to show that Usain Bolt has a genetic advantage over other sprinters. He is 6' 5" inches and usually at that height you don't have enough 'fast twitch' fibers or the strength to take strides long enough to take advantage of that height. He is one of the very few that is in the sport that works for his unique genetics. Feliks doesn't have a genetic advantage like that, he doesn't have fingers that bend backwards or can do something odd with the cube......But, on seeing a lot of his reconstructions I noticed a lot of multislotting so asked him does he practice multislotting and he said no(It's posted on the 'forum') which means while a lot of people are working on the best 'Lookahead' they can, Feliks at times is multislotting without studying it. From all of the records and the smoothness of his solves it's obvious that he is seeing something most are not and his practices help advance whatever little gift he has. It remains to be seen if future cubers can catch up, people have broken records but the sheer number of records and consistency says there's something special about what he is doing. Also people talk about practicing but no one talks about proper practicing. I study music and my teacher said I practice scales too much and don't work on making music. Feliks has vids on just crosses, crosses to f2L, f2L to Last layer, and numerous separate things to make him faster. Just doing solves for many hours a day won't get you there, it has to be specific so you know where you have to work on to get faster.

 

[turtwig]

No. Those are the absolute best. Surpassing perhaps even world class cause they're so much better than everyone else and so clearly have some genetic advantage required to reach that level.

However, world class is a slightly different matter for cubing as it is a far more select group than (for example) running or swimming.

I agree, but my point is that some people are born with natural talent which some people apparently think is not true.

 

[henrysavich]

I honestly think you guys are putting Feliks on a pedestal. World class in cubing is so much farther from human limits than world class in running or swimming. Feliks has been cubing for about 6 years, that's no time at all compared to how long Olympic athletes have been training. I doubt sub-8 is out of reach for the average person, much less the average cuber, if you give yourself 15 years, practicing 10 hours a week.

Of course Feliks is naturally talented, but he's no god. He's gotten to where he is through practice, good practice, more than talent. World class is not yet exclusive based on natural ability.