Feasibility of really big 3x3 algsets like 1LLL and UF5

abunickabhi

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With more and more people investing time in perfecting algorithms, we always try to go for crazy stuff like ZBLL, OLLCP, full floating 3-style and so on. I think these algsets are possible to use in actual solves if a lot of work is put into it.

But there are some algsets like 1LLL and UF5 (5-style edges), which have the number of cases in the thousands, and will take a lot of effort to even properly categorise and retrieve the algorithms once they are learnt.

So my question is, what do you think is the feasibility of such big algsets? If someone becomes a full time cuber and starts from the age of 5, will they be using such algsets.
For reference, such algsets are still smaller in size for memorisation as compared to what elite chess players memorise in their opening theory.
 
With more and more people investing time in perfecting algorithms, we always try to go for crazy stuff like ZBLL, OLLCP, full floating 3-style and so on. I think these algsets are possible to use in actual solves if a lot of work is put into it.

But there are some algsets like 1LLL and UF5 (5-style edges), which have the number of cases in the thousands, and will take a lot of effort to even properly categorise and retrieve the algorithms once they are learnt.

So my question is, what do you think is the feasibility of such big algsets? If someone becomes a full time cuber and starts from the age of 5, will they be using such algsets.
For reference, such algsets are still smaller in size for memorisation as compared to what elite chess players memorise in their opening theory.
Personally I suspect that a lot of the really big alg sets aren’t going to be worth it, but a large chunk of it will be. Look at 1LLL for example. Just ZBLL, one of its subsets, is under scrutiny for which cases are faster than just normal OLL/PLL so that alone should serve as a predictor that full 1LLL is also going to have really good cases, like line, flipped line, Tripod etc, and cases where just doing OLL into PLL is going to be faster. That’s what I think is going to be the hardest part about these large alsgsets. Not genning algs or sorting , but going through every cases after good algs are found and checking if it’s even faster than the standard way of solving.
 
Personally I suspect that a lot of the really big alg sets aren’t going to be worth it, but a large chunk of it will be. Look at 1LLL for example. Just ZBLL, one of its subsets, is under scrutiny for which cases are faster than just normal OLL/PLL so that alone should serve as a predictor that full 1LLL is also going to have really good cases, like line, flipped line, Tripod etc, and cases where just doing OLL into PLL is going to be faster. That’s what I think is going to be the hardest part about these large alsgsets. Not genning algs or sorting , but going through every cases after good algs are found and checking if it’s even faster than the standard way of solving.
Yes I agree with you. Not all cases in the bigger algset, will be the fastest ones, and coming up with a subset of the big algset is not an easy task. The subset should be designed in such a way that it proves to be worth the ROI, and the time put into the new algset.

On a side note, I have posted the topic on puzzling stackexchange as well, hope to get some cool views from there as well,
https://puzzling.stackexchange.com/...big-3x3-rubiks-cube-algsets-like-1lll-and-uf5
 
I don't think they are worth it. People have finite time to practice solving and they can practice recognition and execution of common cases or they can try the daunting task of learning hundreds or thousands of algs. I think it is more efficient timewise to focus on the former.
 
1LLL? And me still trying to forget algs to get faster

abunickabhi said:
Yes similar to the rise of Max Park, there is no need of learning fancy and big algsets.

Just keep the solve process simple.

source
 
I am making a document on how to approach super big algsets. Its not ideal to put 1LLL and UF5 in the same boat, as 1LLL has lesser amount of cases.
But UF5 set has more symmetries and setup to other cases as compared to 1LLL, so accelerating the learning is easier there. The reason more symmetry exists is because UF5 is only for one piece type ie edges whereas 1LLL has both edges and corners.
 
It all depends on how much time you pour into cubing.

If you're competitive on an international level, practice 10+ hours per day anyway and have already exhausted most of the easy improvement through higher TPS, intuitive solutions, lookahead, then investing time in 1LLL is a no-brainer, as you will get more improvement out of it than from grinding another 10000 hours of solves.

Of course, if you only cube for like an hour a day, you won't have time to practice at all if you commit to such a huge alg set.

So, in conclusion, I'd say they are definitely feasible if not mandatory to achieve the best possible times, but they're not worth thinking about for 99.9% of today's cubers.
 
If you're competitive on an international level, practice 10+ hours per day anyway and have already exhausted most of the easy improvement through higher TPS, intuitive solutions, lookahead, then investing time in 1LLL is a no-brainer, as you will get more improvement out of it than from grinding another 10000 hours of solves.
I still think instead of 1LLL, investing into efficient cross+pairs and much smaller subsets of ZBLL, COLL, OLLCP (or even the entire subsets) is much more worth it.
 
I think about this topic a lot, so if I wanted to, I could, no Joke, write 15 paragraphs in this thread. But I won't as noone's gonna read this.
I find it fitting that you in particular ask this question, as the progress you make with 5-Style is amazing on it's own.
One thing is, how much the effort is going to pay out in actual solves. For example, people who know nothing about Edge control or LS tricks learn COLL and ramdom LL algorithms. They are almost never coming up, so you spend all this effort to get not even faster. Now, COLL or Cyo's LL algorithms are not big sets to learn, but agg a zero and my point stands. Learn sets that actually benefit you.
Also if one is learning a set that is bigger, I always say to decide to do this only for your main event.
As to if they are feasible, I can count quite some (Tao Yo, Jibari, Chris Chan and whatever), who know full ZBLL and have gotten fast with it.
Might write some more later.
 
With more and more people investing time in perfecting algorithms, we always try to go for crazy stuff like ZBLL, OLLCP, full floating 3-style and so on. I think these algsets are possible to use in actual solves if a lot of work is put into it.

But there are some algsets like 1LLL and UF5 (5-style edges), which have the number of cases in the thousands, and will take a lot of effort to even properly categorise and retrieve the algorithms once they are learnt.

So my question is, what do you think is the feasibility of such big algsets? If someone becomes a full time cuber and starts from the age of 5, will they be using such algsets.
For reference, such algsets are still smaller in size for memorisation as compared to what elite chess players memorise in their opening theory.
Right now? No probably not worth it at least for something like 1lll. There are too many problems.

1) Genning good algs is going to take forever.
2) recognition time will pretty much always take longer
3) even if you learn them, you will probably have worse execution for all of them because you will see each one fewer times in your practice solves because there are so many of them meaning you’ll have less practice,
4) Many of the algs are going to just be worse then doing OLL and PLL or some other set, and figuring out which ones are worse is going to be a pain.

these are just the issues I can think of off the top of my head. However I do think this brings up an interesting question. Once records start stagnating where will cubing go? CFOP has hard limits as a method when it comes to minimum movecounts required to complete each step, extensions to them help people break through those limits a little bit but even those extensions have hard limits. Once we start hitting the wall of what’s humanly possible with the method what will happen? Will people start using Roux because it has a higher ceiling? The, average movecount is lower, of course it’s more intuitive meaning it’s harder to turn faster, but that’s only placing more of a burden on the brain, which has a very high ceiling, to get faster instead of having an actual physical limit. Of course Roux has a physical limit too, so what happens when we hit that wall too? Do you go to a very low movecount method like heise, which isn’t even seen as a speed solving method at all, in order to break those limits, or do you learn massive alg sets in order to solve more with fewer moves? Just placing more and more of a burden on the brain until we hit the physical limits of your brain (if that even exists), or even the limits of how good you can get within the time period of you life that your brain has fast enough reaction time to compete at the top level. Of course there are physical limits of the cube, the mean minimum amount of moves it takes to solve a cube from any cube state is about 18 moves, turning at 12.5 moves per second (Ruihang’s TPS during his best official average) would get you 1.44 seconds. Of course to be able to average this time would require you to inspect a world class FMC solution within a 15 second inspection time consistently and probably just 1 look the whole cube just to keep up tps. This is obviously completely unreasonable, and almost definitely impossible, however maybe these large alg sets will become necessary to even have a chance at beating records.

my bets on when CFOP (including all its extensions) becomes completely stagnant is when people start averaging around 3.6.
 
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