Europe 2008

[nicoJ]

i will say things for clear

i WANT to meet OH american cubers (such as ryan patricio, dan dzoan, etc..), so i have nothing against a world championship
and if it is a world championship (or an european championship) i guess there will have to be a World champion, due that there will be people from around the world

BUT if the competition is an EUROPEAN competition, i'm sorry but there can just be europeans ()

so, if it were for me, change the competition to a WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP (without martians), but PLEASE, do not try to turn up an EUROPEAN COMPETITION in a EUROPEAN COMPETITION FOR PEOPLE THAT IS NOT FROM EUROPE

thank you all for reading, this is my last post

PS: sorry, shelley, i just was trying to make a little irony:rolleyes:

 

[AvGalen]

Why do you want a closed competition? What will a closed competition accomplish for you that is not possible in on open competition? Why can't feelings of national pride and camaraderie be possible in the presence of foreigners?

I want a closed competition based on feelings and not rational thoughts. The following may sound like weird comparisons, but read them a couple of times and match them to your personal experiences before you start knocking them down:
a) If a couple of guys want to hang out it gives them certain expectations and feelings. If one girl would come along with them their is no good reason why they should act different or experience the event differently, but in reality the experience would change (am I really mixing Heisenberg and psychology here?)

b1) Discrimination based on gender is basically prohibited in The Netherlands
b2) At my favorite sauna, there is a ladies-day were men are prohibited from entering. If one man walks in I can guarantee that there will be a different experience (feeling) for the women that were already there. This different experience is mostly based on feelings because even if no man would actually be there, but someone just says that ladiesday has been changed so men might be there the feelings/experience will be different. Most women that go to ladies day are either "first-timers", "bring-your-daughter"-mothers or shy. However many of them also come to the sauna when men are there but just enjoy being in a womens-only environment sometime. (Strangely there is no such thing as a mens-day were women are prohibited from entering)

I realize the differences between men and women are much bigger (especially when naked) compared to European and non-European cubers. I am not making analogys here, just giving an example where it is clear that feelings can change the experience even though rationality/logic gives no reason for this.

Also note that none of this has to do with elitism. I would like to have a closed EC because I enjoy the feeling of Europeans-only. I don't enjoy that feeling because I think Europeans are superior to non-Europeans. I am also not afraid that non-Europeans would take all podiums and prices (first, that wouldn't happen on an EO. second, if it would happen at an EO it would be fine by me). I just can't stress enough that I will enjoy an EO and hope to meet as many non-European cubers as possible. I am just going to miss the EC and admit that's because of feelings, not rationality.

Having said that, I also want to say that this very discussion is making me feel a little unwelcome about the prospect of being an American and competing in an Open European competition that is not the World Championship. Is it only the European Championship where (some) Europeans want to exclude foreigners from competing because of a European "feeling"? Please tell me this is the case, because it seems strange to me that you could turn off this feeling like a toggle switch between an Open and a Closed competition. As to the invitations for non-Europeans to still come to a closed European competition, I will tell you that I personally would never attend a competition where I am not allowed to compete. It would make me feel most unwelcome and unwanted, and I would never voluntarily choose to put myself in that position.

I very much hope to meet more European cubers, in Europe, in the near future. I hope this huge disagreement over this issue does not affect those of us who do choose to cross the big pond to come see you guys. That would very greatly sadden me if it did.

Are we all still friends here?
Chris

Don't feel unwelcome Chris. It really is all about the difference between calling something EC vs EO as you said (and hoped). I have pushed the toggle-switch without any problem simply by renaming EC to EO (nicknamed the big Bilbao Open). I agree that inviting a cuber to a competition where he cannot compete is just cruel.

I hope to see you and many others on this side (EO, but also other Opens in Europe) and on other sides (US Open 2008, Worlds 2009) of those big ponds. There is no doubt in my mind that we are all still friends here. Actually I hope some of us understand each other a little better now.

It's a real jerk thing to do... if you try 4x4x4 BLD for the first time in competition without spending effort on it at home.

I am going to do that jerky thing. I haven't tried a 4x4x4 BLD, don't know how to do it and will not try or study it at home. I hope someone like Chris or Mike will teach me the night before the US Open. If they cannot or don't want to I will try to learn how to by myself. This is not because I am to lazy to do it now. This is because I want to find out if it is possible to do it this way (short time, high pressure).
I never tried multi-blind at home and didn't study how to do it. I just tried it at a competition and got 2/2 (good enough for place 7 in the world back then ) and that was before I got a regular blindfolded correctly.

Finally, if any Martians would show up at any tournament (Open or Closed) I would let them compete dispite all the rules or practical implications because
a) That would be soooo cool
b) I would be afraid of the consequences if they weren't allowed from competing. (actually, I would still be afraid of what happens if they can't solve it )

 

[Erik]

Lol, Arnaud just let me see the light. This is, on the part why I want the competition closed:
I tried to explain what I felt, but I see now the real reason can't be explained better than just a feeling. There is (and I hope was never) no doubt I like to compete against loads of people, or I'm scared of others. (Nor is it the fact that I just want close competitions so the chance of me winning is bigger)
If I were all that, I wouldn't go to the WC or any open and get my butt kicked.
It's the feeling we (at least Arnaud and me, but I'm sure others too) have.
I do see it's hard for non-Europeans to understand because they maybe don't have this feeling about their continent/school group/country.

Furthermore, Chris I still love you and every* cuber I've met so far. You are a very cool guy and I hope to meet you again.
* (since I couldn't think of one I didn't at the moment.)

About the 4x4 BLD:
I know I haven't done a successful solve yet in competition, but I'm working on it (most important change is that I'll use U2 method for centres, which is more reliable than (at least my) commutators )
Oh: and Arnaud, I'm not good at 4x4 BLD at all but I know how to solve it, I can help you too when the time is right

 

[Tyson]

The question that really punishes me all the time, since this discussion came up:

Should we allow Martians to compete at the World Championship?

well if you're serious..i think that world championship would be fair to exclude martians because i assume their genetic makeup is different in some way, because then we aren't all inherently 'the same' anymore as is the case here on earth. if some martian has 3 hands with 10 fingers with an eyeball in the middle of each palm, i don't want a piece of that

1st: Yes, I was beeing somewhat serious.
2nd: good point!

I think this argument is facetious. The discovery of extraterrestrial life would have impacts that far exceeded cubing.

 

[Tyson]

Lol, Arnaud just let me see the light. This is, on the part why I want the competition closed:
I tried to explain what I felt, but I see now the real reason can't be explained better than just a feeling. There is (and I hope was never) no doubt I like to compete against loads of people, or I'm scared of others. (Nor is it the fact that I just want close competitions so the chance of me winning is bigger)
If I were all that, I wouldn't go to the WC or any open and get my butt kicked.
It's the feeling we (at least Arnaud and me, but I'm sure others too) have.
I do see it's hard for non-Europeans to understand because they maybe don't have this feeling about their continent/school group/country.

Furthermore, Chris I still love you and every* cuber I've met so far. You are a very cool guy and I hope to meet you again.
* (since I couldn't think of one I didn't at the moment.)

About the 4x4 BLD:
I know I haven't done a successful solve yet in competition, but I'm working on it (most important change is that I'll use U2 method for centres, which is more reliable than (at least my) commutators )
Oh: and Arnaud, I'm not good at 4x4 BLD at all but I know how to solve it, I can help you too when the time is right

Isn't this the definition of selfish? You want something because it makes you feel good, and you're willing to screw over other people to get it. This feeling you talk about is intangible and really is discriminatory.

Why don't you try a different example rather than men and women naked in a sauna? I don't think you can come up with an example that doesn't seem terribly discriminatory. There is a lot in terms of sexual history, that contribute to the dynamic of naked men and women in a sauna. The day this is applicable to cubing is the day you can use this argument.

But really this feeling you want is just your own elite club. It is not part of a world organization. It is elite, because you want to exclude people over something they cannot control.

Is this that you feel you have the right to be selfish? That you feel you have the right to put your desires over the global community? That you don't want someone to participate in your competition simply because of where they were born?

I apologize, I'm a bit worked up right now and it's early in the morning. But I want to see more tangible arguments. Because if you're allowing yourself to make decisions based on "feeling," you realize that I would have to make some decisions based on "feeling" as well. Just wait until your government makes decisions based on "feeling." Oh it feels right, for national unity, that everyone should believe in the same deity. It just feels right, that life begins at conception. It feels wrong to save lives using stem cells.

You can't make decisions based on "feeling" because NOT EVERYONE FEELS THE SAME WAY! So you have to make decisions based on logic. And I think logically, even Arnaud has conceded that what I present shows there is no reason to have the competition closed.

I will be calmer after my morning cup of water.

 

[Tyson]

Yeah, you know... I don't like the feeling of blond people at my competitions. It's a feeling. The blond people are going to take away all the prizes from the people with black hair. Oh, but I actually don't like all people with black hair. I don't like people who speak Mandarin. It takes away from the feeling. How can we have a Caltech competition if we allow people with blond hair who speak Mandarin to compete?

Oh, you happen to be here? I'm sorry. You have blond hair. Oh? But being blond isn't under your control? You could get gene therapy and mutate the genes to produce more pigment for your hair. That's unreasonable? No one is forcing you to be blond, you have that choice.

But come on guys, please understand. You have to know what it means to have black hair and not speak Mandarin. You don't understand, because your culture is different. If you come, you will destroy the feeling of the competition. Of my event... of this event that I own because whereas it seems like I'm just complaining on forums, I actually work hand-in-hand with the sponsors and the organizers.

But this isn't something you can understand. You have blond hair. And you speak Mandarin. Oh, you've been here for 9 years? The gene therapy process takes 11? Well you'll have to wait two years.

Please, you have to understand. You are going to destroy the entire event! I can't call it the Black Hair-Non Mandarin Speaking Championships anymore because I don't want to, because you ruined my party. And you cut the cake. Where is the cake? There is no cake. The cake is a lie! You lied about the cake!

What? You mean that I could have a good time if I didn't ruin the party for myself? But you have blond hair. I don't want you to come. My feelings that this party will be ruined if you come is an absolute. If you come, by definition I will be sad, and the party will be ruined. So it is you who comes that ruins the party. Not you who comes, and then I don't like it, so I ruin the party. You see, the responsibility is obviously on you. Because this feeling that I have, is shared by everyone.

Obviously I'm calmer now. People like Sikan are the exact reason why I wouldn't close a competition in the United States. He's been in the United States for how many years, I don't know. The fact that he doesn't have citizenship is not of my concern. There are many reasons why he might not have it. Maybe he hasn't had time to take the test. Maybe he has family in China and needs to keep the Chinese citizenship so he can visit them. But it's by some great fortune that we are able to have Sikan be a part of our community. He deserves to compete amongst the people in his home just as much as anyone else.

 

[Erik]

I've read your post quickly (I'm not going to read all of it since I don't have time for that atm.)
But what you are insisting is that we discriminate, we don't like non-europeans etc? And most of all we think we are better than non-europeans? Sorry but you didn't understand Arnaud's point then.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I haven't tried a 4x4x4 BLD, don't know how to do it and will not try or study it at home. I hope someone like Chris or Mike will teach me the night before the US Open.

There is a possibility my wife might be in China during the US Open. If so, I'm afraid I won't be able to go (even though I've already paid for it). But I'm still very much hoping I will be able to attend, and if I am, I will try to find a chance to get together with you and help you learn 4x4x4 BLD. There are many people for whom it would be a jerk thing to try 4x4x4 BLD for the first time in competition, but for someone who's already good with commutators as a concept, and has done 3x3x3 BLD and even multiBLD, and is good at fewest moves (meaning they can see things on the cube well), and is good at big cubes, and has already learned many methods for solving cubes, and takes the time to learn all the necessary methods the night before, I think this is a perfectly reasonable thing to try. Your chance of success might not be large, but it should certainly be possible.

 

[Tyson]

I've read your post quickly (I'm not going to read all of it since I don't have time for that atm.)
But what you are insisting is that we discriminate, we don't like non-europeans etc? And most of all we think we are better than non-europeans? Sorry but you didn't understand Arnaud's point then.

No, I don't think Arnaud thinks that Europeans are better. But it is discrimination if you base it on "feeling." Feeling is something that is intangible, and I could say that the atmosphere of my competition is ruined when blond kids with four-letter names that end in "rik" attend.

So I don't want any blond kids with four-letter names that end in "rik." That would ruin the feeling of my competition. Oh, I'm sorry you don't understand, but try to understand. You just don't understand because you are not one of us.

Do you see how ridiculous things are if the only reasoning you can give for it is "feeling"? If you could present a logical tangible argument, you might have a case.

 

[Erik]

How about this:
there is a pub for students who are member of a certain schoolorganisation/club/just the school/whatever. This is actually a real example I think. The people in that pub also go to normal pubs and meet you and have fun. But... you want to go into that special student pub because it happens to be a big pub, but... the door says that you have to be member of that club/school/organisation etc.etc. the only way you can be a member is to be in that school so you can join (just like you have to request a european passport to enter EC).
Or imagine a big chessclub from a school, every student from that school plays in it (I wish chess was that popular but lets assume it was), you can't be member of that unless you are studying at the school. But is such a club bad? No it's not, you can still play those people at the normal tournaments of which there are loads.
Imagine even, that that club only gets together once a year to hold a tournament! Which is even a better example. (but most members still play the regular tournaments every weekend!)
And: not every member plays every weekend tournament, but this one tournament each year is where they all play to see who is best of that school and have a one time opportunity to meat all of eachother.

This is as good as I try to explain it, maybe the feeling it's not comparable to anything at all, so it can't be explained 100% (side question: does it have to be comparable + explained?)....

 

[shelley]

I don't know how familiar you are with American history, but look up the Jim Crow laws. These were in place because white people in the southern United States basically had the same kind of feelings about black people. Besides these feelings, there was no reason for them and they were unfair. I'm sure there are plenty of other examples throughout history that can illustrate this, but this was the first thing that came to my mind.

Europe isn't an exclusive club or organization. We're all part of the WCA. I can respect competitions that are closed on the basis of merit, but not on the basis of something we can't control.

 

[Erik]

I think the school examples were a better comparision to the current situation here than sheer racism to be honest...

 

[Inusagi]

How about this:
there is a pub for students who are member of a certain schoolorganisation/club/just the school/whatever. This is actually a real example I think. The people in that pub also go to normal pubs and meet you and have fun. But... you want to go into that special student pub because it happens to be a big pub, but... the door says that you have to be member of that club/school/organisation etc.etc. the only way you can be a member is to be in that school so you can join (just like you have to request a european passport to enter EC).
Or imagine a big chessclub from a school, every student from that school plays in it (I wish chess was that popular but lets assume it was), you can't be member of that unless you are studying at the school. But is such a club bad? No it's not, you can still play those people at the normal tournaments of which there are loads.
Imagine even, that that club only gets together once a year to hold a tournament! Which is even a better example. (but most members still play the regular tournaments every weekend!)
And: not every member plays every weekend tournament, but this one tournament each year is where they all play to see who is best of that school and have a one time opportunity to meat all of eachother.

This is as good as I try to explain it, maybe the feeling it's not comparable to anything at all, so it can't be explained 100% (side question: does it have to be comparable + explained?)....

But what if those students is allowed to join? I don't see anything bad with it. How can you see anything bad with it?

 

[shelley]

I think the school examples were a better comparision to the current situation here than sheer racism to be honest...

Racism may be an extreme example of course, but it was based on the same kind of discriminatory feelings. There's no real reason black people can't study at the same school as white people. But it would ruin the feeling of all the white people hanging out together.

Besides, unless you've broken off to form the ECA, we're all in the WCA. We're all in the same club, or school, or whatever analogy you want to make.

 

[Bryan]

The thing is, everyone is competing against a clock. This isn't like basketball or soccer or chess. So figuring out the best for any certain subgroup is easy.

Also, some people may not be citizen of a country, but live there and culturally fit in. Do they ruin a competition? If someone is a citizen, but they're completely immature, do they ruin a competition? Yes. So by that logic if I wanted to ban all competitors under a certain age, that should be fine?

 

[Tyson]

Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.

In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.

 

[Erik]

Chess is different, and I talked about this in a different post. In a chess tournament, your field has a direct effect on your individual performance. You have to play these people. The same goes for a track and field race. In a 1500 meter race, the people who lead the pack will set the tempo for the race.

In cubing, you can perform your best result irregardless of who is there.

That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance (TPR) should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament).
So again you find something which doesn't make the example totally matching, maybe this situation and our feeling is not 100% comparable to anything.
I know there is no such thing as a European club, maybe there should be one (which is a doughter of the WCA), we feel like there is a club. We talk each year about the best European guys and talk about the previous and upcoming European Championships.
If you compare the EC the way it was to discrimination and xenophobia or even racism, this shows that you have strong feelings about this. Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules. As you see this is a very bad time to change things, at least if you change the rule that there can be closed competitions, do it just after the previous EC so we won't be training for a tournament that's not going to exist anyway!
Seriously if this decision was going to be made after this EC as it was planned I wouldn't even care that much about it...

 

[Bryan]

That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament).

So you'd be fine with not having any of the results recorded in the WCA database? Just who won.

Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules.

http://www.worldcubeassociation.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=84

 

[Inusagi]

That was totally beside the point, lets say everyone has the same rating then. (by the way, I don't see reason why the performance (TPR) should count/matter since it is about who wins the tournament).
So again you find something which doesn't make the example totally matching, maybe this situation and our feeling is not 100% comparable to anything.
I know there is no such thing as a European club, maybe there should be one (which is a doughter of the WCA), we feel like there is a club. We talk each year about the best European guys and talk about the previous and upcoming European Championships.
If you compare the EC the way it was to discrimination and xenophobia or even racism, this shows that you have strong feelings about this. Then I ask you why in this 4 years, where there has been loads of closed competitions and even more open competitions, why you all didn't try to change the WCA rules. As you see this is a very bad time to change things, at least if you change the rule that there can be closed competitions, do it just after the previous EC so we won't be training for a tournament that's not going to exist anyway!
Seriously if this decision was going to be made after this EC as it was planned I wouldn't even care that much about it...

Why wouldn't you care that much about it if this was planned after the competition? I mean it would just have been a closed one in 2010. The difference is nothing. If it's in 2010, then the close one is just 2 years away. To be honest, there would nothing difference. And if you say that you have dicussed with your friends about how it would be if it was open (before you knew it would change), then you can change the discussion. It'll be nothing difference to change it now.

 

[rxdeath]

i agree very few comparisons work in this situation.

erik: the EC does exist. its the open competition in bilbao, just because you 'deny' it, doesn't mean its not there.

another point: so if its the 'atmosphere/feeling' that you're after, how is it ok for us to be there, but not compete? i mean people would still be there and stinking up the place with their non-european aura. is it just if we compete? where exactly is the line drawn? how do you manage this feeling at other competitions as chris asked, i don't see how this can be turned on and off. the comparison to racism isn't as far off as you think in my opinion, i didn't really want to drop that bomb, but its pretty close, i think its funny the word 'nationalism' would best describe this segregation in my mind, and it makes me reaffirm that -isms are usually horrible.