Europe 2008

[Tyson]

So then what's wrong with my solution? Why not simply exclude foreigners from the 12 available European spots?

But on another note, that's also an issue with the organizer. You'll see at US Nationals, there isn't a limitation on the number of spots. Instead of deciding who gets to compete based on when they sign up, everyone gets to compete. They simply have to qualify based on achievement.

There are many solutions to this problem. And I think most of them have to do with the structure of the tournament, more than it has to do with the open or closed nature of the tournament.

 

[shelley]

exclusion is exclusion and they should all be stopped

No they shouldn't. Or do you think women soccer should allow male players, stop having paralympics (or allow everyone to compete), etc. There are many reasons for exclusion and geography, selfishness and pride are just some of them.

Your first two examples of exclusion are for the purposes of leveling the playing field. Men are generally stronger than women, so it makes sense to separate their sporting events. Paralympics, obvious. There are good reasons for exclusion. Selfishness and pride are not among them.

 

[rxdeath]

rxdeath: First of all, do you ever use capital letters?
Second of all, shouldn't you be also complaining about National/Continental Records on this thread, since you have the fullest attention here anyway.

my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.

i would complain if i thought that titles affected anyone else, but since titles are just something people make up in their mind, i don't care.

 

[shelley]

on terms of geographic and population.. etc etc... it's not those terms that define a continent, the USA and Russia should be a continent too then it's big, and it's got loads of people... so now I ask you: why isn't this the case?

If we put aside political and social issues that have no place in cubing anyway, how is US vs Europe not a fair comparison in terms of cubing? We have comparable populations, comparable cuber populations, and for a US Championship and European Championship you will have people traveling about the same distance. If Russia had similar overall population and cuber population as the US, I'd be making that comparison as well.

 

[rubikaz]

So then what's wrong with my solution? Why not simply exclude foreigners from the 12 available European spots?

I think that the Championship should be closed but if not, we should do what you say but in this case, not more competitors should be accepted. If we accepted more non-European competitors and not more European competitors..., uhm, I think it is wrong.

On the other hand, now 13 Europeans want compete in 4x4 blindfold, only 4 of them have been accepted and only 4 Europeans have solved 4x4 blindfold before. Why? I think that the 12 available spots includes foreign cubers...

 

[Bryan]

OK, I see that you have to ask questions with nothing else for them to be answered:

1) If holding a closed competition is so important, what are you willing to give up in order to have them?

2) Are all the Europeans mad about the organizer's decision, or are there just a few vocal ones?

3) What do people really do with any of the national titles? If in the next competition someone beats them by a large margin, do they explain to people "Well, yeah, there's another guy from here that's faster, but I won a competition 18 months ago because he had a scheduling conflict, so I'm still the champ. He has beaten me in every competition we've both been at though."

 

[Tyson]

Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your second paragraph.

 

[Stefan]

2) Are all the Europeans mad about the organizer's decision, or are there just a few vocal ones?

Create a poll?

 

[Tyson]

If I created a poll on "Is Stefan Pochmann the true god?" I don't know that opponents would vote. It'd be slightly biased.

 

[rubikaz]

Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your second paragraph.

You have not understood it because I have written it in a horrible way. I try to explain it again:

Suppose that the 12 spots are first reserved for European cubers

Number of spots: 12

There are 4 Europeans that have solved 4x4 blind before so they can compete. You have to reserve 4 for them.

Then there are 8 spots for new cubers. First day of registration 6 cubers wanted to compete in 4x4 blindfold. 2 of them had solved 4x4 blind before. The other 4 no. There are still 8 free spots and only one of them gets one. Why? I think that the organization have reserved some spots for foreign cubers that have solved 4x4 blind before.

 

[Tyson]

Why not just have 12 spots for Europeans, and 6 for foreigners. The foreigners don't have anything to do with the 12 spots for Europeans.

Though again, I don't think that the competition should be setting a number of spots. It should simply be on accomplishment, and not who signs up first. What do you think about that? The competition of course has to save time, but I think it's better to do it with qualification times than it is to set aside a certain number of spots.

What if 200 Europeans (slow ones) took all the spots, and all the good cubers couldn't compete? (This is of course, a different issue, but I'm wondering your opinion.)

 

[Tyson]

Well, of course it would be silly to accept more foreign competitors than European competitors. That's just not the demographic that would attend. If the demographic were different though, then we would have to reconsider.

I'm sorry, I don't quite understand your second paragraph.

You have not understood it because I have written it in a horrible way. I try to explain it again:

Suppose that the 12 spots are first reserved for European cubers

Number of spots: 12

There are 4 Europeans that have solved 4x4 blind before so they can compete. You have to reserve 4 for them.

Then there are 8 spots for new cubers. First day of registration 6 cubers wanted to compete in 4x4 blindfold. 2 of them had solved 4x4 blind before. The other 4 no. There are still 8 free spots and only one of them gets one. Why? I think that the organization have reserved some spots for foreign cubers that have solved 4x4 blind before.

I guess what I'm also trying to say is that if this is a problem, then maybe there shouldn't be a limit to how many people can sign up for an event. This limit of N people can sign up for Event X causes similar problems, irregardless on the open or closed status of the competition.

 

[Rama]

my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.

But offcourse: Europe, '. Well', 'I', Erik, you just name it.



We just want a closed competition, if you want to experience a nice European competition just go to the Belgium Open, Dutch Open, German Open where most of us will be and don't come with the story ''I want to meet all of you in one competition'', you know that some cubers can't attend a competition due to school, etc ....

I have to say that you guys make me wanna 'Shout'.

 

[Tyson]

my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.

But offcourse: Europe, '. Well', 'I', Erik, you just name it.

We just want a closed competition, if you want to experience a nice European competition just go to the Belgium Open, Dutch Open, German Open where most of us will be and don't come with the story ''I want to meet all of you in one competition'', you know that some cubers can't attend a competition due to school, etc ....

I have to say that you guys make me wanna 'Shout'.

Hi Rama,

I feel that your post here does nothing to further the discussion. Don't you think you just repeated what has already been said over and over again?

Why do you want a closed competition? What will a closed competition accomplish for you that is not possible in on open competition? Why can't feelings of national pride and camaraderie be possible in the presence of foreigners?

 

[rxdeath]

my capitalization really has a lot to do with this discussion thanks for your insightful contribution.

But offcourse: Europe, '. Well', 'I', Erik, you just name it.

We just want a closed competition, if you want to experience a nice European competition just go to the Belgium Open, Dutch Open, German Open where most of us will be and don't come with the story ''I want to meet all of you in one competition'', you know that some cubers can't attend a competition due to school, etc ....

I have to say that you guys make me wanna 'Shout'.

it has nothing to do what i want, it has to do with being fair for all. it happens i support that view. in everyone's argument/rants they haven't refuted the fact that open is fair, closed is not. because you 'want' something doesn't make it right or fair, and the best way to do things is the way they should be done. i've already said i won't compete if i'm there, to prove my point that its not personal it about everyone else, not me. arnaud admitted there's no good reason to why the euro champ can't be crowned, so that point is dead. so i don't even know what we're really debating about, just you guys don't want foreigners there, because you want to have some elistist cube meeting where you exclude people? thank goodness i helped kill that silly idea.

 

[Ou]

I think the idea of having a European-only competition can be likened to deporting immigrants from Europe because you want a certain demographic for your continent.

Cubers should have no reason to be biased against other nationalities. Even though Yu Nakajima can be exemplified here, there is no established fact that people of a certain nationality cube better/differently.

And, as it's been said, the European Championship is quite different from smaller competitions where less people will be. On that same course of logic, many American cubers could have skipped the WC2007 and only attended the US Open for the same experience, but no person who could have gone to WC2007 would have done that.

A European champ will have his fame, and non-European cubers will have their competition. I don't see the huge issue with that.

 

[joey]

In response to Bryan: I'm european (UKian), and I want it open.

[size=-10]as long as I get a comission from all foriegn cubers[/size]

 

[nicoJ]

mr shelley: if you get a prize for posting lots of posts in the same thread, thank to erik that was who created it

and to mr. quotes man (rxdeath): if we do a World championship, and martians want to compete.. should we allow them?

i guess not. maybe they are better, maybe they win, and though we cannot call them "world champions" they will get angry, and there will be trouble

i do not want any trouble in the PALE BLUE DOT
that isnt anything more than a single planet in the whole universe

 

[rubikaz]

I guess what I'm also trying to say is that if this is a problem, then maybe there shouldn't be a limit to how many people can sign up for an event. This limit of N people can sign up for Event X causes similar problems, irregardless on the open or closed status of the competition.

The problem is that these categories will be the same day that the qualification round of other puzzles so if you want to add a qualification round for it you should use the previous day???. The best option is qualification round for these events, of course, but maybe there is not enough time. Maybe there will be a problem irregardless on the open or closed status, but foreign participation can be an extra problem here.

Anycase, my opinion about an open or closed championship is independent of this problem. It is only one more point.

 

[Ou]

Martians may or may not be superior to humans. Martian Manhunter would certainly beat us all in cubing.

That being said, since we do not believe certain nationalities are intrinsically better at cubing than others, you cannot compare the exclusion of extraterrestrials.