Europe 2008

[tim]

Now the European champion will finish 4th at the European championnships.

I took 4th place at the US Open in the Pyraminx last year. I got the NAR, but no trophy. Now, I could sit at try to justify that it was an "Open", and that the Europeans did have the right to be there, but it was sponsored by an American company, blah blah blah.

Or, I could just accept the fact that there were competitors there that were faster than me, and I took 4th.

US Open != US Championship. You're mixing things up.

Anyway, i don't really care, since i can't make it to the top of any events. Except for multi bld and there i would love to compete with Rowe and Ryosuke.

 

[Bryan]

it was an "Open", and that the Europeans did have the right to be there

It's an Open not a Championship.

Yeah, good thing I mentioned it :rolleyes:

I suppose I could reference the 2006 US Nationals, but many people have already done that. But one of my points was that it was sponsored by an American company, which some people have tried to justify their closed competitions that way. The other point was that I took 4th because 3 people were faster than me.

 

[rubikaz]

I expect to hear about WRs broken!

I'll go for BLD. (Which means I get WR,ER and UK NR *i think*)

Sorry Joey...

And ? Who won ?

(PS : I finished 1st in all the competitions i participated in Spain (5))

and I can say: I finished 1st in blindfold in all the competitions i participated in Spain (6, 2 nacionals + 4 opens)

 

[shelley]

To those who oppose the open competition: would you feel satisfied winning with the knowledge that you only won because you excluded others?

Come on. Cube tournaments are about having fun, meeting people, learning new things. It's not about who gets to stand on the podium for 30 seconds at the end of the tournament. The title of European Champion isn't enough for you?

 

[Dene]

Hang on, why would the winner of the competition not be a European? You have Erik Akkersdijk, Edouard Chambon, Milán Baticz, Thibaut Jacquinot, Tomasz Zolnowski and Joël van Noort as well as many others who are all contenders for first place.

 

[Tyson]

Glory and ego are the same word in essence. If you care about glory, you are only trying to satisfy your own ego, and I feel sorry for you that you need this.

At US Nationals and Open, I plan to announce the international winners first, and then the winners for the US Nationals afterwards. Those who want their podium time will get it.

But what's that worth anyway? I was actually robbed of podium time. But fortunately, I have enough other life accomplishments that it's not the biggest deal.

And what's this "oh, I took 5th place but I was the fastest European." Just tell the press that you're the European Champion. The foreigners competed in a different aspect of the competition.

Learn to separate the processes in your heads. And I really don't see what glory there is. It's only in your own mind. I would take last place in every event and get completely destroyed by foreign competitors if it meant I could get to hang out with Mitsuki Gunji.

 

[hdskull]

How likely is it for all the good cubers from the world to fly there ?

anyway, I am neutral on that topic, but I'd like to mention something else.

How come there are free competitions in Europe with prizes for everyone, but there are no free competitions (even with no prizes) in the United States? Well, at least not in California.

 

[Ron]

Hi all,

When I go to a competition there are 6 things that could be interesting:
1) I have a lot of fun
2) I meet lots of people
3) I visit a foreign country/city
4) I have the opportunity to set personal records under pressure
5) I win titles
6) I win prizes

For me 1-4 are my top priorities. Without these I would not go to competitions.
5 is a nice extra.
I do not care about 6 at all.

Euro 2008 being open means to me:
1) more fun!
2) more people!
3) first competition in Spain/Bilbao
4) more pressure is good!
5) probably 5-20% foreign cubers, but they do not influence my chances. I can win the title.
6) a little less chance to win anything, but it is not important to me.

Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?

Have fun,

Ron

 

[Ewks]

I don't think that it is a bad thing to let people from outside europe to compete. I personally don't have any chance of getting even top 30 at anything, but I don't mind 'cause I can meet lots of people(maybe even some international champions). And if you're good enough to be the euro champion you should be able to fight back those foreing people. So in my oppinion it is good thing that foreing people are allowed to compete.

 

[jazzthief81]

Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?

Have fun,

Ron

Why not call it the Open European Championship?

http://www.mahjongnews.com/oemc2005.htm
http://oemc.mahjong.dk/

Lars

 

[Erik]

Seriously why don't we really make the name World Championship, if it's a big 3 day tourney, everyone can compete. What's the difference? What's the horrible thing about having an 'onderonsje' (a little battle between people of one region) . By the way, in every sport there are national championships and european championships.
The meaning of the title you get when winning the European Open is looking different to me than to winning a true EC.
To have an Open like this is in my opinion an attempt to do 2 things at the same time. But it doesn't seem possible to me to succesfully combine both. The one is to have a big championship where there will be a top 3 and the winner of the tournament who gets the title of that tournament (i.e. France Open Champion, Benelux Open Champion, etc.), the other is an attempt to have an EC where you want to determine the best cubers from Europe with a tournament where the top 3 will be the best 3 cubers in Europe on each event.

I don't really hate the Europe Open at all, but by making this we kinda destroy something else.

So again, I vow for both a Europe Open (where there won't be any titles besides the title European Open Champion) AND a Closed European Championship (where the winner will have the titel European Champion), the first because, just like Ron I love the people, the countries, the races, the pressure and the fun!

p.s. the likelyness of for example Nakajima to compete or the number of non-european cubers that will probably compete, or the chance that a european will probably win is completely irrelevant.

 

[Rama]

The other point was that I took 4th because 3 people were faster than me.

Yeah, it's a good thing that you already mentioned this.

Glory and ego are the same word in essence. If you care about glory, you are only trying to satisfy your own ego, and I feel sorry for you that you need this.

At US Nationals and Open, I plan to announce the international winners first, and then the winners for the US Nationals afterwards. Those who want their podium time will get it.

But what's that worth anyway? I was actually robbed of podium time. But fortunately, I have enough other life accomplishments that it's not the biggest deal.

And what's this "oh, I took 5th place but I was the fastest European." Just tell the press that you're the European Champion. The foreigners competed in a different aspect of the competition.

Learn to separate the processes in your heads. And I really don't see what glory there is. It's only in your own mind. I would take last place in every event and get completely destroyed by foreign competitors if it meant I could get to hang out with Mitsuki Gunji.

I don't care if we get our butts kicked like I already said, it's an Championship.

You cannot imagine how much I want to meet new ''foreign'' cubers, but it's an Championship.

I want to compare my times with other European cubers without using the WCA ''Regions'' list and/or ignoring the 'foreign' cubers on the results list.

Hi all,

Suppose we would call it European Open and still let the European winners be European Champion. Would that make a difference?

Have fun,

Ron

Ron that is accaptable, but I won't recognize someone as the European Champion even though if he or she has or hasn't finished 1st place.

 

[Bryan]

OK, does any honestly think about the titles that often? If someone is French and doesn't win the French title, but wins the European title, it seems to be inconsistent that they're the European champ, but not the French champ.

As for calling it "World's", is that just because if you get your title, you want it to be a World Title instead of European title? Besides, geography wise, the competition is going to be dominated by Europeans. Perhaps we should've called Armonk the World's for this year.

 

[Doudou]

And if you're good enough to be the euro champion you should be able to fight back those foreing people.

Is it a joke ? What you are saying has no sense at all.

Why isn't there foreign competitors in US track and field qualifications for Olympic Games ? Why isn't there any european team in the NBA ? Why does the N means "national" ? Are not you against that, too ?

Why don't the Brazil compete in European Soccer championnship ?

Ron, you want more competitions, with more people. I want it too.
Deleting the european championnship and create a Bilbao Open will not give more competitors, it will have the inverse effect. I saw a lot of french competitors who wants to go to European Championnships. I don't think there will be so many french people at the Bilbao Open at all.

That's funny that people against the Euro (the great one, not the bilbao Open) are only non-european people...
I think you just can not understand.
If you want to fly to Europe for free, please, find a sponsor. And let us live. We don't want to be americans.

 

[mrCage]

Hi

I see that closedness/openness is causing a big debate.

I for once will support a bit of strictness, maybe a bit too late as it has now been made an open championship already.

My concern is no related to national pride or anything like that. But simply the fact that allowing an even larger number of participants would (possibly) make hosting more expensive (larger venues) and also (again possibly) reduce the number of events possible as more prerounds would have to be arranged to accomodate for higher number of participants.

Also with the very high number of events, the reasons for making this an open championship seem rather faint.

If a sprinter has his prime season in a yr without any wc or olympics, so be it. It will have to be the same also for speedcubing, IMHO. Im only being practical ...

- Per

 

[Tyson]

Track and field is a professional sport. The NBA is a professional organization. People do these things for money. I sport is different when it becomes your job. The US Track and Field Olympic Qualifications also serves a different purpose... it tries to identify which US Citizens to send to the Olympics. We did the same thing at US Open 2007. The idea was that we were trying to find someone to send to WC 2007 to represent the United States. If a Canadian had won, we would have given it to the next person. Canada had their own event prior to that.

Track and field is also very different. In a 1500 meter race, it is very tactical, and fast runners in the field will change the race is run. Furthermore, you can only have a certain number of people on the track at a given time. In a lane event, you are limited by the number of lanes. Cubing has none of these restrictions. It doesn't matter who's there, your pursuit is still individual, independent of the other results. So having other people in the competition will not affect you.

And it takes such little effort to scan the list and mentally filter things by region. In all likelihood, you'll probably only need to remove one or two names at most.

Where's your perspective? What would happen if the US Nationals was closed? What about 2004? What if one day, 50% of the cubers in Europe are from other countries?

 

[Bryan]

Why isn't there any european team in the NBA ?

It's probably more a question of logistics. We do have a Canadian team in the NBA.

I saw a lot of french competitors who wants to go to European Championnships. I don't think there will be so many french people at the Bilbao Open at all.

Are the French against more competitors?

That's funny that people against the Euro (the great one, not the bilbao Open) are only non-european people...

Umm....yeah, because the Europeans aren't affected by a closed competition that's only open to Europeans. Perhaps I should say it's funny that the only people who complain about having the EC open are Europeans.

What would you say that for a closed competition, you can only establish records against the level of competitors that the competition is available to? So at the Euro Championships, you can at best establish a continental record, but not a world record, since you refuse to compete against all competitors of the world. For the French Nationals, you can't establish a WR or ER.

 

[Jason]

I don't understand why americans should be trying to influence a decision which is effectively a european matter. Europe should be free to follow it's own road independantly of american interests. This is a European championship organised by europeans for europeans after all. Therefore any decisions should be made internally to europe, and shaped by european peers. In this case, a lot of top european cubers and organisers have the feeling of being short circuited out of the decision process, and that it was effectively in part influenced by americans in their own interest.

 

[Erik]

Thank you Jason, I didn't want to say it since people might feel I'm being discriminating, but I didn't understand why other people besides Europeans try to change the way of a European Championship in the first place.
Of course if I was American (or Japanese or whatever) I want it to be open, another big tournament I could enter! But I never had the desire to compete in French Championships for example, no matter how good the cubers are there, since there will probably be a French Open too, which will always be a bigger championship too I'd like to add.

Also I'd like to add this: since WC, I've been focussing for the next big tournament of course, the EC 08. I've had it in my mind for more than half a year now, focussed on the competitiors I would have to face for each event plus the chance I have in each event to end in the top 3 which is my goal, I'm a perfectionist (especially in cubing). Now that it's open this whole perspective of the EC changed big time.
why has this decision to make it open been made so 'silently' without checking on a big scale for the European cubers' opinion?

 

[Doudou]

Erik, it is exactly the same feeling for me.
And same for Jean, too.