Developing alternative 4x4x4 method (Move count: ~110 without parity)

[rjohnson_8ball]

Has anybody attempted to solve 4x4, 5x5, or bigger cubes by doing layer by layer? I don't think it would be efficient, but it might be fun. That was the first thing I tried when I got my 4x4 many years ago, but I had trouble.

 

[AvGalen]

Has anybody attempted to solve 4x4, 5x5, or bigger cubes by doing layer by layer? I don't think it would be efficient, but it might be fun. That was the first thing I tried when I got my 4x4 many years ago, but I had trouble.

Sure, that was the first thing I tried as well and it works perfectly, except parities

 

[qqwref]

Yeah, LBL is fun. I did a 7x7 LBL a few times

If you have trouble setting up cross with no-inspection, you might want to try a columns method. The way it works (well, the way mine works) is to solve a D center, then fill in all the other centers and the cross on D using vertical columns of pieces. For the 4x4 there would be 8 columns, each with two centers and one edge piece. (It takes a bit of practice to do these efficiently, but you'll get it.) After that you can either end by pairing up edges and doing a Fridrich solve, or by doing it K4 style: fill in corners, finish F2L with commutators, do CLL, and then finish the LL edges with commutators. I can average something like 2:15 on the 5x5 version of this.

 

[bamilan]

Centers+Edges+3x3(+parities) is good, but not good enough.
Think about Centers and corners+edges. Low number of moves(if r counted as 1 move), and fast execution.
Just try it. If you have a good method for edges, your 4x4 times can be around 35.(Because centers+corners can be done in 15 seconds easily).
This also works on 5x5. Centers+3x3 can be done in 45 with a little practise. The rest is almost the same time as on 4x4(last 24 edges). The point is to find a good way of solving the last 24 edge pieces.

Have fun,
Milan

 

[AvGalen]

Centers+Edges+3x3(+parities) is good, but not good enough.
Think about Centers and corners+edges. Low number of moves(if r counted as 1 move), and fast execution.
Just try it. If you have a good method for edges, your 4x4 times can be around 35.(Because centers+corners can be done in 15 seconds easily).
This also works on 5x5. Centers+3x3 can be done in 45 with a little practise. The rest is almost the same time as on 4x4(last 24 edges). The point is to find a good way of solving the last 24 edge pieces.

Have fun,
Milan

Do you have an example solve (text, video, applet, whatever). Because I have no idea how I would do corners+edges. (obviously with quite a lot of slice moves)

 

[AvarageCuber]

How about...method for 4*4*4 where u start from corner and do it like petrus...? I have been creating it...
Can some1 test it a bit and say is it worth it!?

 

[AvarageCuber]

Im developing alternative 4x4x4 method also!
It just need a lot of patient trying to find all "OLL" and "PLL"
It works like:
1*1*2 block
1*2*2 block
2*2*2 block
2*2*3 block
2*3*3 block
3*3*3 block
3*3*3 block + 4th center
3*3*3 block + 4th center + 2 paired edges
3*3*4 block
3*3*4 block + 5th and 6th center
3*3*4 block + 5th and 6th center + 3 paired edges
3*4*4 block
then OLL and PLL(creating)

Any1 interested about this creation?

 

[qqwref]

Centers+Edges+3x3(+parities) is good, but not good enough.
Think about Centers and corners+edges. Low number of moves(if r counted as 1 move), and fast execution.
Just try it. If you have a good method for edges, your 4x4 times can be around 35.(Because centers+corners can be done in 15 seconds easily).
This also works on 5x5. Centers+3x3 can be done in 45 with a little practise. The rest is almost the same time as on 4x4(last 24 edges). The point is to find a good way of solving the last 24 edge pieces.

Have fun,
Milan

Yeah, I thought of this before, and I think I posted to the Yahoo group about it once (for the 4x4). The problem is that the edges take a long time. On average you have 23 edges and so about 11 commutators (88 slice moves plus setup and 1/2 chance of parity, and lots of cube rotations), since there isn't really any easier way to do it if you have to keep centers and corners (and midges) nearly solved. Including recognition this tends to be very hard to do in even 40 seconds... but if you CAN do it, very good times might indeed be possible.

 

[Hadley4000]

I'm gonna try it once.
u' U' b f L2 U2 R d' F2 R2 F L2 u2 l L U2 l b B' u' F2 b r' L F f U' L F d F D2 l2 R' f' b2 d2 D f2 u2

Centers: 36
Edges: 75(LOL)

 

[rachmaninovian]

Centers+Edges+3x3(+parities) is good, but not good enough.
Think about Centers and corners+edges. Low number of moves(if r counted as 1 move), and fast execution.
Just try it. If you have a good method for edges, your 4x4 times can be around 35.(Because centers+corners can be done in 15 seconds easily).
This also works on 5x5. Centers+3x3 can be done in 45 with a little practise. The rest is almost the same time as on 4x4(last 24 edges). The point is to find a good way of solving the last 24 edge pieces.

Have fun,
Milan

o.O I solve my 5x5 the first 2 centres + 3x3 and then fill up the bottom and top layers, middle edges, and final centres..too uncomfortable with redux o.O and i average sub 2:30 so i'm too lazy to change as well

 

[Kenneth]

The problem is that the edges take a long time. On average you have 23 edges and so about 11 commutators (88 slice moves plus setup and 1/2 chance of parity, and lots of cube rotations), since there isn't really any easier way to do it if you have to keep centers and corners (and midges) nearly solved.

If you add a number of algs above the commutators you can reduce the number of turns.

Here is a 2-gen 4-cycle that is wery useful:

r U2 r2 U2 r' U2 r U2 r' U2 r2 U2 r

It alters parity. It is also the mirror (or inverse, it makes the same) so you can also solve PLL parity in the same go from doing mirror/not mirror.

Multi commutators

Niklas:

(x') r U L' U' r' U L U'

Inverse in left slice:

(x') U L' U' l' U L U' l

Both in one go:

(x') r U L' U' r' l' U L U' l

Another cycle:
A: (x') U2 r2 U R U' r2 U R' U
B: (x') U' R U' l2 U R' U' l2 U2
A + B (x') U2 r2 U R U' M2 U R' U' l2 U2

Really advanced you can also do mirrors in one or even combine the two diffrent cycles:

Like in this Niklas: (x) r U' R' U2 L' U' l' U L U' M U' R' U



Using algs like that I can solve all, fully scrambled LL edges in sub 30 turns on average, including parity!!!

And I can do it fast (for me that is), look ahead is ridicously easy, often negative

BTW: Try to start from F2B, it saves a lot of turns.

 

[cubeRemi]

I think its time to develop something better than reduction.

Im developing alternative 4x4x4 method also!
It just need a lot of patient trying to find all "OLL" and "PLL"
It works like:
1*1*2 block
1*2*2 block
2*2*2 block
2*2*3 block
2*3*3 block
3*3*3 block
3*3*3 block + 4th center
3*3*3 block + 4th center + 2 paired edges
3*3*4 block
3*3*4 block + 5th and 6th center
3*3*4 block + 5th and 6th center + 3 paired edges
3*4*4 block
then OLL and PLL(creating)

Any1 interested about this creation?

it sounds nice, edge oll would (only) be 2^7/4 = 32 cases.
I don't know how many pll's
maybe you can make a very nice 4-look LL !

ore maybe like this: orient edges, COLL, permute edges. this would be 3-look+no parity's! move count: E-oll 14? coll 10, pll-E 16?
= 40 but a lot of inner slice turns...
but maybe Kenneth's approach is better

"3*3*3 block + 4th center + 2 paired edges" and "3*3*4 block + 5th and 6th center + 3 paired edges" here it would be hard to recognize what to pair up and what to ignore....

other opinions?

Remi

 

[Kenneth]

Edge OLL is =(

A edge in place is always oriented so it is enough to do PLL.

But you will have so many cases if you do them with the cornes (it's like PLL * 8 * 7 * 6 * 5 * PLL-parity), that's why I use ELL (that is for real EPLL).

 

[cubeRemi]

Edge OLL is =(

A edge in place is always oriented so it is enough to to PLL.

stupid me!!!

 

[Kenneth]

stupid me!!!

Not at all, it is a obvious way to make a LL. I once started from CLL, then solve two edges to one side, orient (commutators) and permute the last 3 sides (30 cases, still got the algs up, here). It is only experience that made me switch to ELL

 

[siva.shanmukh]

Is there any source to get a brief of what k4 method is like? An elaborate explanation wouldn't hurt though..

 

[Lucas Garron]

Is there any source to get a brief of what k4 method is like? An elaborate explanation wouldn't hurt though..

Not that terribly hard to find, but not easy either:
http://www.rxdeath.com/k4/

Also: http://archive.garron.us/paste/file/k4anim.zip