Creationism vs. evolution

Pastafarian. But really.
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say. Maybe something like: god created thing TO evolve. Unfortunately for me, I don't believe in a god. IT DOESN'T MEAN I'M ATHEIST, or AGNOSTIC. I'm also bored so: actually, i better wait until this is a no religion vs. religion.
 
so many pages after my last check, so little lulz, maybe it's time for a funny picture to get the flamewar started

pick one, I'll remove them when I need the webspace


pictures removed because of no chance of flamewar
 
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We wonder why it gets hostile, people posting things insulting creationists so... If we could all just think with our heads and not our emotions things like this would go a lot smoother.
I definitely agree with Kian, you can't really just compare creationism and evolution you would need to compare it to abiogenisis and cosmology and evolution, so you have the start of the universe, the start of life and then how we got from that start to where we are now.
As most of you probably know, especially from the last thread on the subject, that I'm a Christian. I don't think I'm a fundy tho, although I'm pretty sure I follow Jesus much more than fundies but thats off topic.
Personally I just chose to be a little agnostic on the subject. My faith isn't going to burst into flames if I have to take a couple chapters of Genesis as an allegory given to a prescientific people.
I haven't studied this topic much at all so I'd get flamed if I say much more than this. Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.
 
Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.
ahh
and I bought popcorn and everything!

but srsly, ask away

This is where it would be good to have either a better memory or a bigger wallet because I read Language of God and Case for a Creator a year or so ago but don't really remember the details of either book at all.
I spend a lot of my time at church where just about everyone is of course a creationist and one that I hear most often is the transitional species. Cause thinking about how many changes it takes to get from one species to another its quite a large number. A good few thousand changes. Since we have thousands of intermediate animals for every transition shouldn't we have more fossils of transition species? Yea, I know its difficult for fossils to form and all but does anyone have any information on this specific example? Say, number of transitional fossils found, how many different species, etc. At worst I have some ammo to throw at my creationist friends.
Edit:
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

Win!
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Whether its falsifiable or not and what it says about God isn't really part of the point Dene was making.
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Whether its falsifiable or not and what it says about God isn't really part of the point Dene was making.

Double Win!
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Did you ever think that maybe God doesn't lead absolutely every second of our lives, and we have free choice? The way you said that made it sound like we had no control over what happens in our lives. Maybe it is not God who is causing all the problems on earth. Maybe we as humans has messed it up and don't have much longer to be here.
 
I don't believe in God or any higher being, and I don't believe in creationism. I know you can't prove or disprove the existence of God, I just don't believe in it.
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Whether its falsifiable or not and what it says about God isn't really part of the point Dene was making.

Double Win!

I'll answer you anyway, since I'm actually friends wit real creationist not the crazies you hear about in the media.
The logic is God made Adam as a full grown man not a newborn lying on the ground, a full grown garden not just a bunch of seeds sitting on some dirt so in the same way he made the whole universe appear mature. I mean you can't blame God entirely for throwing you off in your pursuit, He did give you a book telling you how He did it...
Edit:
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Did you ever think that maybe God doesn't lead absolutely every second of our lives, and we have free choice? The way you said that made it sound like we had no control over what happens in our lives. Maybe it is not God who is causing all the problems on earth. Maybe we as humans has messed it up and don't have much longer to be here.

But now you are getting into theology and not science... I don't entirely know if this is the place for that. I'll be happy to discuss it with you in private messaging tho.
 
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*Gets fire proof jacket*

I personally am big on evolution myself. I think that with as much evidence as we have, it is the more logical answer.

THAT BEING SAID. I have %100 respect for anyone who follows their own faith. I have some beliefs, both with my religion(Judaism) and without that many would consider to be out there. Faith is a powerful, personal thing. I don't think it's fair for someone to be attacked based on their faith and beliefs.
 
Creationism just doesn't work. Too bad if you can't see the obvious evidence of evolution is what I say.

Firstly: Wrong. You are an idiot if you think Creationism does not work. Secondly: As it has already been pointed out, the theory of evolution and Creationism are compatible. If you mean something like "there is an evolutionary history going back millions of years" then are you really that stupid to see the obvious counter argument that the world was created with a history? If you can't see this then you should stay out of this thread.

The problem with this "obvious argument" is that it is not falsifiable. For every argument you hear you can simply say "Well, god made it that way." and there is no way to prove you wrong. So my question becomes, why? Why would a benevolent all-powerful being go out of his way to throw us off his trail? If there is a higher power, and it gave us logic and reason, and then put things in place to deliberately mislead that same logic and reason... Well I don't think that's the kind of creator I'd want to worship.
E pur si muove!

Did you ever think that maybe God doesn't lead absolutely every second of our lives, and we have free choice? The way you said that made it sound like we had no control over what happens in our lives. Maybe it is not God who is causing all the problems on earth. Maybe we as humans has messed it up and don't have much longer to be here.

I never said anything about the problems we face. My point was that it seems kind of low to give us the power to reason, and then plant false evidence in the form of "the world was created with a history." I don't doubt that humans are the cause of the world's problems. I would also be willing to admit the possibility that we don't have much longer to be here, though probably not for the same reasons you have for thinking so.

@Lofty, you are correct, I have strayed dangerously from the topic at hand and I will try to get back on it with any subsequent posts.
 
Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.
ahh
and I bought popcorn and everything!

but srsly, ask away

This is where it would be good to have either a better memory or a bigger wallet because I read Language of God and Case for a Creator a year or so ago but don't really remember the details of either book at all.
I spend a lot of my time at church where just about everyone is of course a creationist and one that I hear most often is the transitional species. Cause thinking about how many changes it takes to get from one species to another its quite a large number. A good few thousand changes. Since we have thousands of intermediate animals for every transition shouldn't we have more fossils of transition species? Yea, I know its difficult for fossils to form and all but does anyone have any information on this specific example? Say, number of transitional fossils found, how many different species, etc. At worst I have some ammo to throw at my creationist friends.

The problem is that most of those changes are invisible as far as the fossil record is concerned. A lot of them will be on the cellular level - making slightly different amounts of various proteins/enzymes, or having a better immune system, or being more intelligent, or something like that. Some will be for coloring, some will be behavioral, and so on. Since all you get is basically the bones, the only changes that the fossil record can tell you about are the physical ones.

Now, because all of the small physical changes are (typically) in the same direction, you'd see a gradual change over time, rather than discrete steps. In practice evolution is rarely as simple as saying that a group of animals become taller and immediately the rest die out - rather, the species as a whole might slowly become taller (on average) over time, because the tallest individuals are more likely to pass on their genes and the shortest are less likely. Since change is so gradual, the definition of species is fluid at best... asking for a species between a given two related ones can sometimes be like asking for a color between yellow and orange - even though you can imagine a color between there, most people would describe it as a yellowish orange or an orangish yellow, and indeed it's probably not different enough from either one that it deserves to be called a new color.

What I mean by this analogy is that when two species are already relatively similar you begin to not be able to tell the difference between things that are on the border between them. If we find a fossil that looks very similar to a species we know about, it would be much more correct (and much more likely) for the discoverer to identify it as a member of that species - even if it did belong to a population that was (on average) different from the species we're familiar with, it could also have just been a member of that species who was a bit different-looking. So, while you may be able to find transition fossils for some relatively widely separated species, if you try to fine-tune it too much you will end up finding that any intermediate creature which looks significantly different from the first fossil will look a lot like the second, and vice versa.
 
I actually think the world is going to end in 2012.[/BS]

But humans are just leeches on the earth, taking as much out as they can. It won't be long nefore the earth finds us and flicks us off.
 
Maybe I'll be able to ask some questions later and get honest answers not just flame.
ahh
and I bought popcorn and everything!

but srsly, ask away

This is where it would be good to have either a better memory or a bigger wallet because I read Language of God and Case for a Creator a year or so ago but don't really remember the details of either book at all.
I spend a lot of my time at church where just about everyone is of course a creationist and one that I hear most often is the transitional species. Cause thinking about how many changes it takes to get from one species to another its quite a large number. A good few thousand changes. Since we have thousands of intermediate animals for every transition shouldn't we have more fossils of transition species? Yea, I know its difficult for fossils to form and all but does anyone have any information on this specific example? Say, number of transitional fossils found, how many different species, etc. At worst I have some ammo to throw at my creationist friends.

The problem is that most of those changes are invisible as far as the fossil record is concerned. A lot of them will be on the cellular level - making slightly different amounts of various proteins/enzymes, or having a better immune system, or being more intelligent, or something like that. Some will be for coloring, some will be behavioral, and so on. Since all you get is basically the bones, the only changes that the fossil record can tell you about are the physical ones.

Now, because all of the small physical changes are (typically) in the same direction, you'd see a gradual change over time, rather than discrete steps. In practice evolution is rarely as simple as saying that a group of animals become taller and immediately the rest die out - rather, the species as a whole might slowly become taller (on average) over time, because the tallest individuals are more likely to pass on their genes and the shortest are less likely. Since change is so gradual, the definition of species is fluid at best... asking for a species between a given two related ones can sometimes be like asking for a color between yellow and orange - even though you can imagine a color between there, most people would describe it as a yellowish orange or an orangish yellow, and indeed it's probably not different enough from either one that it deserves to be called a new color.

What I mean by this analogy is that when two species are already relatively similar you begin to not be able to tell the difference between things that are on the border between them. If we find a fossil that looks very similar to a species we know about, it would be much more correct (and much more likely) for the discoverer to identify it as a member of that species - even if it did belong to a population that was (on average) different from the species we're familiar with, it could also have just been a member of that species who was a bit different-looking. So, while you may be able to find transition fossils for some relatively widely separated species, if you try to fine-tune it too much you will end up finding that any intermediate creature which looks significantly different from the first fossil will look a lot like the second, and vice versa.
Ah that is true, with only the bones you don't get things like organs and blow-holes and rubbery skin and all of that bit, but even still with bones alone I'm sure you can still see more than you are making it out to be. You still have the legs going into the fins and tail and what not.
I'm very aware that species is fluid but even so that does not explain away that in the process of flowing there will be thousands of different organisms. That is why I used the word animal in my post and not species because I knew of this fluidity but didn't really know how to phrase it.
You gave me a lot of just very broad statements describing how evolution is supposed to work. Do you have any specifics so that we can point to very specific cases and say that this is how it has actually been shown to work in practice.
 
@Lofty: The probability of fossilization, especially that of the very early life-forms is very low. And the probability of them being found is even lower. For example, when Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, one of the strongest arguments he faced was the absence of fossils from the pre-cambrian era (older than 500 million years). But very few rare fossils from that period have been found since then.

As for higher organisms, as you mentioned there will be thousands of intermediate "species" between two known species evolving over very long periods of time(even from a geological point of view). The possibility of finding most, if not all of these fossils is almost zero.
 
@Lofty: The probability of fossilization, especially that of the very early life-forms is very low. And the probability of them being found is even lower. For example, when Darwin proposed the theory of evolution, one of the strongest arguments he faced was the absence of fossils from the pre-cambrian era (older than 500 million years). But very few rare fossils from that period have been found since then.

As for higher organisms, as you mentioned there will be thousands of intermediate "species" between two known species evolving over very long periods of time(even from a geological point of view). The possibility of finding most, if not all of these fossils is almost zero.

I'm aware of these facts. My question is for actual numbers. The original situation was between land and sea mammals. Im not talking about finding most or even all of the species, obviously thats not going to happen. But when we are dealing with thousands even a few percent can be a good handful of fossils, 25 or 50 "species" found.
 
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