Alternative notation

[jackolanternsoup]

IMHO, I think that notation would be great to use because being able to say it quickly and remember it would help to memorise the algs.
It's way easier to say, and remember (T-perm):

R U K O K F R *two* O K O R U K V

rather than

R U R *prime* U *prime* R *prime* F R *two* U *prime* R *prime* U *prime* R U R *prime* F *prime*

And it's more 'solid' because it's easier to differentiate between a B and a P than a 'be' and a 'bo'.

Yeah... but it is quite un-intuitive though. you have to learn 6 more letters not that that's a problem Lol.

 

[DonQuixote]

I'd like to read about this, can you show me where I can? I googled a bit but didn't find anything about this.

The only reference known to me is "Moshé Feldenkrais: Abenteuer im Dschungel des Gehirns, Der Fall Doris" page 15, but I guess the original source must be out there somewhere, too.

Kind Regards
Martin

 

[Bryan]

Instead of prime, I used to just call it "tick". But I really didn't talk to anyone about algorithms, so it was just in my head....

 

[qqwref]

...it's easier to differentiate between a B and a P than a 'be' and a 'bo'.

Allow me to disagree. On a bad phone connection (or with a bad memory), it is much easier to mishear a consonant as something similar than to get a vowel wrong.


Anyway, I noticed this U/O notation has a certain lack of ^2. Might I suggest W (for the oo sound).

Oh, and a bit of history: The ' prime is probably a corruption of the original ^–1, which was used back when people talked about cubes using group theory. So R would be a move and then R^-1 (R inverse) would be the inverse of R. I guess people got tired of R^-1 and just started writing R', which looks similar, as shorthand. In general mathematics, ' (called prime) just designates a symbol that is similar to the previous one: so if A is a point in a geometry diagram, A' might be A after a triangle containing A has been rotated around another point, or it might be the point corresponding to A in another diagram. So if you're a math person you can still justify writing R' by considering it as "a turn similar to R". In cubing terminology it's customary to use ' as the inverse, but I think that's just shorthand, because nobody wants to write down an inverse sign all the time.

 

[fanwuq]

...it's easier to differentiate between a B and a P than a 'be' and a 'bo'.

Allow me to disagree. On a bad phone connection (or with a bad memory), it is much easier to mishear a consonant as something similar than to get a vowel wrong.

Anyway, I noticed this U/O notation has a certain lack of ^2. Might I suggest W (for the oo sound).

I agree with QQ here.
Interesting enough I used the same idea as QQ's notation to memo piece's orientation and permutation together for BLD. I was actually about to suggest this before I read his post!

 

[d4m4s74]

for team blindfold, can you also say "sune", "sexy move" or "F2L alg 1"?

 

[Stefan]

Yes, you can say anything you want.

 

[Pedro]

I also learned to use prime as differentiation symbol, like
y = f(x)
y' = f'(x)
but, whatever...

I never tried team bld, but the different vowels idea seems cool...

 

[Dene]

Don't add "prime" but change the vowel. When you say "R", you probably say it as "ar". Instead of saying "ar prime" you could say "ir".

I was wondering how exactly you pronounce "ir"? Would "er" be easier? Maybe we're thinking about the same thing.

 

[Stefan]

I meant like in beer. Do you mean like in mermaid? Well, whatever works best, I guess.

 

[Dene]

Ah ok I see. Yeah I meant as in m"er"maid. Perhaps "ir" as in b"eer" is less clear, or maybe it's just me >.<

 

[AvGalen]

I also learned to use prime as differentiation symbol, like
y = f(x)
y' = f'(x)
but, whatever...

I never tried team bld, but the different vowels idea seems cool...

Yep, I used it this way as well. Although I just called it "accent" instead of prime. That's one of the reasons I don't understand why it means inverse in cubing.

I still like the n[UFRBLDufrbld]m notation (add 6 more letters for megaminx)
n means the layer, counted from the outside to start on
UFRBLD means all the layers (wide turn), ufrbld means only one layer (slice turn)
m is the amount of turns (2 to indicate ' on a pyraminx, 3 to indicate ' on a cube, 4 to indicate ' on a megaminx)

MES become unnecessary because of ufrbld. l would be equal to M on a 3x3x3
xyz become unnecessary because you can use n=count(layers). 3R would be equal x on a 3x3x3
And when n=1 or m=1 they don't need to be written.
This doesn't make normal scrambles longer, it doesn't require subscript or other math-like constructions and it is easy to read and usable on many puzzles (not square-1, clock or magic)
It does require spaces between moves

 

[qqwref]

The ' symbol *only* means differentiation in calculus. In group theory there is no need to take a derivative.

I still like the n[UFRBLDufrbld]m notation (add 6 more letters for megaminx)
n means the layer, counted from the outside to start on
UFRBLD means all the layers (wide turn), ufrbld means only one layer (slice turn)
m is the amount of turns (2 to indicate ' on a pyraminx, 3 to indicate ' on a cube, 4 to indicate ' on a megaminx)

SiGN notation is better. It is better for uppercase letters to mean slices because we have used ufrbld for double-layer turns for a long time (and uppercase MES for slices, right?) and this would just be confusing. Also it is silly to make m a number and never use ', because then it is just a way to encode the moves, it doesn't describe what you are doing. No serious speedcuber would insist on doing their algorithms with only clockwise turns. (Also, we need a way to write inverse, and "^-1" is way, way too long.) Any generalized notation system should (at the very least) be up to the task of describing any move that can be executed.

 

[AvGalen]

Sorry for the late reply, but:

* I don't care if uppercase or lowercase means slices. Just as long as it is consistent. Right now u means something different on 3x3x3 compared to 4x4x4.
* Why would a notation system describe how a move should be executed? Does D2-D4 (chess) describe how?
* Is there a notation system that describes how to perform a l' + r slice on a 5x5x5 (can be done as 1 move) or how to perform a r slice with layers 4 to 6 on a 7x7x7?

 

[jenni]

There is another notation I have seen on Dan Brown's youtube video's where intead of using ' for denoting the inverse, he uses a lower case i.

So R U R' would become R U Ri.

Since I'm still new to cubing, I've no idea if this has not already been mentioned for a reason (i.e. if it's rubbish lol) but it helped me remember one of the first algorithms I came across:

Fi U Li Ui - to learn this, I would say it almost as if it was one word, so phoenetically it was like saying "fee-oo-lee-oo-ee".

Just my 2p's worth anyway

 

[MistArts]

There is another notation I have seen on Dan Brown's youtube video's where intead of using ' for denoting the inverse, he uses a lower case i.

So R U R' would become R U Ri.

Since I'm still new to cubing, I've no idea if this has not already been mentioned for a reason (i.e. if it's rubbish lol) but it helped me remember one of the first algorithms I came across:

Fi U Li Ui - to learn this, I would say it almost as if it was one word, so phoenetically it was like saying "fee-oo-lee-oo-ee".

Just my 2p's worth anyway

I think "i" is inferior to "'" because I confuse it with "l" and it take longer to write in FM.

 

[qqwref]

* I don't care if uppercase or lowercase means slices. Just as long as it is consistent. Right now u means something different on 3x3x3 compared to 4x4x4.

Personally I started using r to mean a double layer turn on bigcubes when I started cubing (i.e. before I started speedcubing), and it helped for patterns because I was doing a lot more double layer 3x3 patterns than slice commutators. I think it also makes more sense, by analogy with the 3x3 - using r for M' on 3x3 looks and feels weird, and I prefer to be able to describe block turns without using circumlocutions like (Rr). Besides, anyone who's used to multislice scrambling (which everyone uses, right?) should find it somewhat natural to use r for a double layer turn.

* Why would a notation system describe how a move should be executed? Does D2-D4 (chess) describe how?

Why not? It doesn't take much extra notation to be able to describe not only what the move is, but how it was executed. By allowing both U and U3' (and U5 and so on), or both M and r' R, our notation is not just suitable for scrambling and optimal solutions - we can also use it for writing down algorithms with fingertricks included. If we can condense all the applications into one notation, the notation becomes much more useful, because we don't need to deal with two different notations if we're interested in both scrambling and learning algorithms.

Chess is a bad analogy, by the way. There is only one way to perform a Chess move (even for castling, I believe you have to move the king first). And the way you perform the move doesn't matter, since only the result is important. But in cubing it is not just important that you solve the cube: it's also important how fast it is, so how you execute a move makes a difference.

* Is there a notation system that describes how to perform a l' + r slice on a 5x5x5 (can be done as 1 move) or how to perform a r slice with layers 4 to 6 on a 7x7x7?

The r slice with layers 4 through 6 (wait, you mean layers 2 to 4 on the R side, right?) is just a block turn, so the full SiGN would write it as 2-4R. You could also write (l'r) on 5x5 as 2,4R if you want, although I don't really like counting that as one move since it's not a single block turn.

 

[unsolved]

On the 5x5x5 I tried to memorize M and E and it did not make sense to me. Capital letters were for slice moves, and these were right smack in the middle of the cube. Also, I keep thinking of the cube having a Top and a Bottom; Up and Down is for Quarks

So the notation I am using for my own studying and algs:

T= top face
t = top slice
e = equatorial around front, right, back, left, front
b = bottom slice
B = bottom face

F = front face
f = front slice
h = horizontal around top, right, bottom, left, top
k = back slice (last letter of "back")
K = back face

R = right face
r = right slice
v = vertical around front, top, back, bottom, front
l = left slice
L = left face

I use + for clockwise, - for counterclocwise, and 2 for twice

All turns are right-handed from top to bottom, right to left, and front to back.

So T+ t+ B+ and b+ are all in the same direction. It seemed odd to me that U and D' were opposite in notation, though spinning the same way when observed as you solve the cube.
Likewise R+ and L+ both denote a move like R and L' in the standard notation. Ditto for F+ and K+ being equal to F and B'.

I use e for equatorial, but in my case, it actually rotates around what would be the cube's equator if it had a north pole and south pole. E in the other notation does not.
I use h for horizontal because when you look down at the top, the face would be parallel to a piece of paper, and the way h moves in my notation is the way a horizontal line would be drawn on the paper.
I don't think anyone needs an explanation of v for vertical.

For block turns, where 2 moves can be made at once, I enclose them in square brackets, like [Tt]- being equal to U' u'. I made a list of moves sequences for the computer program I am writing to solve the 5x5x5

Anyway, this is the system of notation I will use for the program. If anyone wants a beta copy, send me a message on here. Should be ready by the weekend. You'll need 64-bit hardware to run it.

 

[qqwref]

I use e for equatorial, but in my case, it actually rotates around what would be the cube's equator if it had a north pole and south pole. E in the other notation does not.

Um, yes it does? E (equator) is between U and D, M (middle) is between L and R, S (side?) is between F and B. And for larger cubes, it is AFAIK pretty common to use the lowercase letter to signify the middlemost slice only - on a 5x5x5 a lot of people would interpret M as a move of the three middle slices. So a move of the second and third slice would be (m' r), not (M' r). That's also how it works in SiGN, at least for 5x5x5 - there are a few possible ways of doing it on bigger cubes, because M slices aren't part of the base SiGN definition.

BTW, why'd you post this on a 5-year-old thread that's unrelated to your program?

 

[unsolved]

BTW, why'd you post this on a 5-year-old thread that's unrelated to your program?

The topic was alternative notation, which is what I was posting about. The spreadsheet was a way to check to make sure I eliminated all of the moves that a program should eliminate, such as U u D U, F R R', etc. It turns out I eliminated too many so I will need to do a 3-ply and 4-ply version of the compound move generator.