Alternative notation

[Stefan]

Extracted from another thread to keep that one cleaner...

BU: (0292718) 1-1- (7281019)

What do you mean with that? i do not know what those numbers mean.

I guess he used this notation.

Thomas says, that it's easier to memorize digits (5 1728 1728 6) than letters (FRUR'U'RUR'U'F').

But who memorizes the written alg anyway? Plus he could've used letters instead which I think would've been better. RULURULU!!! Yeah ok that doesn't cover direction right away, but you could use the normal six letters plus similar (sound or shape) for counterclockwise, for example:

U' = O
D' = T
R' = K
L' = I
F' = V
B' = P

The above alg becomes "F RUKO RUKO V" which looks easier to me than the numbers, particularly because I can say it quickly.

I think I've seen something like this suggested already in the old mailing list from the 1980s or 1990s... more than three billion invisible points if someone can dig that out.

 

[tim]

BU: (0292718) 1-1- (7281019)

What do you mean with that? i do not know what those numbers mean.

I guess he used this notation.

Thomas says, that it's easier to memorize digits (5 1728 1728 6) than letters (FRUR'U'RUR'U'F').

But who memorizes the written alg anyway?

I wondered the same thing. In my opinion any notation is equally good to memorize algorithms. (yeah, except for things like R' = 1, R = 1, R2 = 1, ...)

 

[pjk]

Extracted from another thread to keep that one cleaner...

BU: (0292718) 1-1- (7281019)

What do you mean with that? i do not know what those numbers mean.

I guess he used this notation.

Thomas says, that it's easier to memorize digits (5 1728 1728 6) than letters (FRUR'U'RUR'U'F').

But who memorizes the written alg anyway? Plus he could've used letters instead which I think would've been better. RULURULU!!! Yeah ok that doesn't cover direction right away, but you could use the normal six letters plus similar (sound or shape) for counterclockwise, for example:

U' = O
D' = T
R' = K
L' = I
F' = V
B' = P

The above alg becomes "F RUKO RUKO V" which looks easier to me than the numbers, particularly because I can say it quickly.

I think I've seen something like this suggested already in the old mailing list from the 1980s or 1990s... more than three billion invisible points if someone can dig that out.

Is it necessary? Is saying it quickly necessary?

I see nothing wrong with the current notation. Perhaps if you want to be able to say it quickly, create names for common groups of moves (sexy move, etc.).

 

[AvGalen]

Extracted from another thread to keep that one cleaner...

BU: (0292718) 1-1- (7281019)

What do you mean with that? i do not know what those numbers mean.

I guess he used this notation.

Thomas says, that it's easier to memorize digits (5 1728 1728 6) than letters (FRUR'U'RUR'U'F').

But who memorizes the written alg anyway? Plus he could've used letters instead which I think would've been better. RULURULU!!! Yeah ok that doesn't cover direction right away, but you could use the normal six letters plus similar (sound or shape) for counterclockwise, for example:

U' = O
D' = T
R' = K
L' = I
F' = V
B' = P

The above alg becomes "F RUKO RUKO V" which looks easier to me than the numbers, particularly because I can say it quickly.

I think I've seen something like this suggested already in the old mailing list from the 1980s or 1990s... more than three billion invisible points if someone can dig that out.

I don't think this is exactly what you want, but can I at least have 1 invisible point so I can see what it looks like

And PJK, the things I dislike most about the current notation is that ' is hard to read (should have used -), ulfrbd means something different on bigcubes compared to 3x3x3 and xyz follow RUF, but MES follow LDF

 

[brunson]

... and xyz follow RUF, but MES follow LDF

That's one of my biggest pet peeves. It's too late to change anything now, but if I had my way xyz would be reversed (to conform to the right hand rule of fields from physics) and MES would follow xyz. At least xyz uniformly correspond to a left hand rule of curl.

 

[DavidWoner]

what about U2? M, S, and E? x, y, and z? there are not enough letters to cover all of these.

And I really don't see any problem with current notation. it is simple and very straightforward. I think if we introduce a letter for each turn then we are going to scare beginners away.

I do however agree that having xyz and MES following different sides is stupid.

 

[AvGalen]

There are enough letters (3*6 + 3 +3 < 26), but it would be silly to use A to X

 

[Rabid]

It is NOT too late. Chess switched to algebraic after hundreds of years. Beginners are already scared. I still say PRIME is wonky.

 

[Lucas Garron]

"Prime" is one syllable, "minus" is two. If people like RUR-, you could probably get away with using it already. For URLs, I'm already making my applet store ' as - (and - to hexadecimal). I still suggest pronouncing it prime, though, or something better that's still one syllable.

I think a bigger issue is consistent notation where we don't have any.

 

[brunson]

Prime makes sense to anyone that's had any advanced mathematics classes. By advanced I mean practically anything beyond arithmetic.

 

[Dene]

I still suggest pronouncing it prime, though, or something better that's still one syllable.

"Dash"! That's what I use! And it works for both

 

[AvGalen]

I agree with dash, or just min in Dutch

And I had some pretty advanced math (I studied physics for a while), but never encountered '. It might not be as universal as you think

IF we are going to change this, it should be through the WCA

I will make a proposal soon

 

[mrbiggs]

I agree with dash, or just min in Dutch

And I had some pretty advanced math (I studied physics for a while), but never encountered '. It might not be as universal as you think

IF we are going to change this, it should be through the WCA

I will make a proposal soon

What did you use for derivative (or velocity for physics)?

It's also used as a secondary variable, like x and x', though that's not as common.

 

[DavidWoner]

There are enough letters (3*6 + 3 +3 < 26), but it would be silly to use A to X

no there are not, since there is also M2, x' etc. you would need 3*12=36 characters.

 

[Jgig1991]

And I had some pretty advanced math (I studied physics for a while), but never encountered '. It might not be as universal as you think

Really, never heard of prime? I though every one used it

 

[DonQuixote]

According to Dr. Paul Broca Numbers are indeed easier to analyze and memorize for the human brain.

Here's an english version of the "Swiss" notation: http://sisyphus.teil.cc/~martin/mmo/mmcc/notation/

Kind Regards
Martin

 

[Stefan]

To clarify: My intention when starting this thread wasn't to suggest we should use this, mainly I didn't like the discussion taking place inside a blindcubing thread so I took it out. But it's also somewhat interesting to talk about.

"Prime" is one syllable, "minus" is two.

Hmm... that made me think. Zero syllables would be even better, right? Not necessarily for writing algs, but at least for team blindsolving I could imagine this being useful:

Don't add "prime" but change the vowel. When you say "R", you probably say it as "ar". Instead of saying "ar prime" you could say "ir". Instead of "ef prime", say "if". And "bo" instead of "be prime".

I see several advantages of this over the added prime. First, it's shorter by a syllable, and shorter is better. Secondly, the direction is clear right away. When you hear "ar prime" you first hear "ar" and you get ready to do an R turn, but then you hear "prime" and have to rethink. Not the case if you hear "ir". Plus it's probably easier to remember several moves this way, making full cross easier in team blindfold. Usually I have trouble remembering more than 4-5 moves during the haste of inspection time, and I think part of the reason is the added "prime" or "two".

Oh right, the "two" could be replaced similarly, saying "or" instead of "ar two".

 

[Stefan]

According to Dr. Paul Broca Numbers are indeed easier to analyze and memorize for the human brain.

I'd like to read about this, can you show me where I can? I googled a bit but didn't find anything about this.

 

[qqwref]

Perhaps numbers are easier to memorize, but I don't memorize R U R' U' as "R U R apostrophe U apostrophe". I memorize it by looking at the cube and watching how the pieces move around (which also helps me do it from other angles, on other puzzles, etc.). And I think it's easier to memorize things the way I do it than to try to associate that short commutator with 4 digits...

I do like the idea of using different syllables for team BLD. Might I suggest the following system: represent moves with a syllable of consonant+vowel. The consonant would be B/D/F/L/R/V (V instead of U) and the vowel would be perhaps ah/ee/oo (clockwise, counterclockwise [like the Ri notation], two). So instead of RUR' you could say "rah vah ree" (ravari). Or sune would be ravarivaravuri. Huh, I think I like this.

Back when I tried to do team BLD with Tim Reynolds I remember we always tried to use as few syllables as possible, but without doing too much memorization. So I remember using 'pull' and 'push' for RUR' and RU'R', and giving each OCLL a one-syllable name, and so on. This idea would make it even easier

 

[MatsBergsten]

Don't add "prime" but change the vowel. When you say "R", you probably say it as "ar". Instead of saying "ar prime" you could say "ir". Instead of "ef prime", say "if". And "bo" instead of "be prime".

It's like they used to describe chess moves via telegraph a 100 years ago. They used vowels for rank
and consonants for rank or the other way around. (According to my old Colljins "Chess primer")