Proposal: Add Gender Sorting on the WCA Rankings

Should SORT BY GENDER be added to the WCA database? (will NOT create new WR/CR/NR)


  • Total voters
    198
So it's not redundant (in database terms).
Also, what information do we use for anything other than information?
Redundant probably was not the right word to use.
I meant redundant in the context of uniquely identifying an entry in the Persons table, since it is not a field used as key.
Concerning information being used / not used as information, I was referring to it only being used for display in the competitors page and not processed in the statistics or misc stats page.
Stefan said:
And you can't tell the which one I meant. But you can if I tell you the gender.
In this specific case yes, but in the other 93% of the cases with the same name, you can't really.
Stefan said:
Really? You know people by personId, not just by name? How did you find out the personIds initially?
In the database, you identify people by personId. The name is used to construct the individual key, but you don't use gender and name to locate and identify them in the Persons table, as they are not unique.
Even to distinguish people, gender is probably not the most relevant thing to check.
Can you imagine if the three male Chen Chen (陈晨) went to the same competition and no one knew them? What a nightmare that would be.
Thanks for letting me clarify what I meant.

My apologies to the OP to digressing somewhat.
 
Weird, but the use of the male pronoun does not bother me. English does not have a gender neutral pronoun equivalent to "he/she" except "it" which is used for objects, not people so why not use "he"? "She" is used to specify us *special* females haha. "She/he" and "(s)he" constructs are silly in my opinion if you have to use them all over the place. People are always so uptight about being politically correct. *Sigh*.

Did you even read my post?

Currently, all five members of the WCA board are men, and there will be a slant (however subconscious) in the board's decision making toward male attitudes.

40% of the WRC is female. ;-)

I still think "they" is a far better gender-neutral pronoun. Although it is arguably not grammatically correct, it feels natural in speech and in writing, and is very clearly not gendered. To be honest, when I read "she" it makes me wonder why they are specifically talking about women.

I feel the same. I'm a fan of "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun myself, but I'm against using it in the Regulations because they need to be as clear as possible to non-native English readers. Hence, the dilemma.
(Feel free to make a rewrite/pull request with a "they" version, though.)
 
I'm a fan of "they" as a gender-neutral pronoun myself, but I'm against using it in the Regulations because they need to be as clear as possible to non-native English readers. Hence, the dilemma.
Good point.
For example in portuguese, the direct translation of "they" has two choices: "eles" if you are referring to men (most commonly used, like the "he" dillema in english), and "elas", referring to women. It's the same he/she issue. There's also not a third "it" for objects.
 
I meant redundant in the context of uniquely identifying an entry in the Persons table, since it is not a field used as key.

In that sense, everything besides the id is redundant. Name, country, ... all redundant.

Concerning information being used / not used as information, I was referring to it only being used for display in the competitors page and not processed in the statistics or misc stats page.

It's also used in the admin backend, in the export, and some of your own statistics.

but in the other 93% of the cases with the same name, you can't really.

I know. But so what? It's still useful in this case. And I pointed this example out as a reply to your "It's not being used for anything right now (is it?)", to show that there is a use case involving it.

In the database, you identify people by personId. The name is used to construct the individual key, but you don't use gender and name to locate and identify them in the Persons table, as they are not unique.

Looks like you're just looking at this from the point of the database. I'm looking at it from the point of the user, like a friend of the competitor who knows the competitor's name and gender. Not the id.
 
Looks like you're just looking at this from the point of the database. I'm looking at it from the point of the user, like a friend of the competitor who knows the competitor's name and gender. Not the id.
Yes, this sums it up. I was thinking about how these values were used within it for extra calculations and/or in the WCA official stats.
Gender is then mostly used as a complementary information to give more details about the user, if available/possible, in the sense you mentioned.
I would like to reiterate the most simple suggestion, of adding the top female results in the "Show:" dropdown (when there is time to implement it) :)
 
Okay. So this is my first non-introduction post on the forums, but I stumbled across this post which had a lot of generalizations with very little information to back them up, and I thought I would contribute a few things. I actually recently did a lot of research on gender disparities amongst hobbies generally considered "intellectual" by the public, mostly Chess and Rubik's Cubing. (Not to say that I think there is correlation between cubing and chess abilities and intelligence because research does not suggest this in the slightest.)

I personally do not think Official World Records should be split, but I do think having quick access on the WCA website to the top 100 female cubers would be extremely beneficial to female cubers. A debate like this has also been had amongst the Chess community, not surprisingly, and I apologize that a lot of my references are about Chess, there isn't much data on Rubik's Cubing in sociological or psychological fields, but the two sports do have quite a bit in common in terms of how they are typed as intellectual and their need for spatial intelligence and reasoning skills. I can't say why the speed stacking is split amongst genders, but Chess is split amongst genders to encourage female participation. The lack of female participation in "intellectual" sports is in part due to old ideas about female intelligence and how women and men are encouraged differently to pursue their interests. This lack of participation creates a smaller sample size of female cubers which in turn leads to fewer outliers (the kind of people who might hold world records) and thus women don't get world records.

The IQ point was pretty moot considering that women and men have pretty comparable IQs and also that the IQ test has been shown to largely mean nothing in terms of intelligence and intelligence isn't required to solve Rubik's cubes anyway. The only difference amongst genders I can think of might be spatial reasoning skills which men have been shown to generally perform better in. However, there was a great study done about preschoolers solving puzzles that showed girls were more likely to be shown where to place pieces and boys were more encouraged to "figure out" where to place the pieces thereby fostering development of spatial reasoning skills in boys more than girls. So maybe if someone's parents and teachers were consciously or subconsciously underestimating their intelligence because they were female they might not have developed equal spatial intelligence. (That was sort of off topic, but this stuff is really interesting to me so I blabbed a little bit.)

There's also data to show that when women compete with men they perform substantially worse than when they compete with other women or the same men they are lead to believe are women, so I think that alone is reason enough to have UWRs for women because it will encourage better performance. (The article is by Christian Jarrett if you want to look it up, my school's databases won't give me access to the full text any longer.)

It didn't seem like anything came from the thread, the WCA still doesn't list top 100 female cubers and I sort of wanted to bump this to see if those steps could be taken and also because there might be people who are interested in some of the data I shared! (If you care about this stuff I could PM you some good reads.)
 
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If you read the thread, you would have found this.

I did read the thread! I think having easy access to these statistics is an important part of encouraging female cubers to compete. Having these statistics readily available on the official WCA's website definitely gives better accessibility to them. I wouldn't have known that this site existed unless I had read through this thread. I appreciate the website, but I still think that it's important for the WCA's website to do what others have suggested, provide a top 100 list of female cubers.
 
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Can we also permanently separate the results by birth month? Like I don't even want to be able to see the actual rankings anymore.

I just want definitive proof that my birthstone (opal) is superior.

</sarcasm>

But seriously, it's none of the WCA's business to sort the results in any special way at all. You should be glad that they've applied some national/continental divisions (which only truly exist as a result of the 1980s cubing "system").
 
Can we also permanently separate the results by birth month? Like I don't even want to be able to see the actual rankings anymore.

I just want definitive proof that my birthstone (opal) is superior.

</sarcasm>

But seriously, it's none of the WCA's business to sort the results in any special way at all. You should be glad that they've applied some national/continental divisions (which only truly exist as a result of the 1980s cubing "system").

So basically you're saying they already do some special sorting, but that's the only kind that should exist? (Correct me if that's not what you meant.) Maybe if there was huge disparities in the numbers of competitors based on birth month and there was also systematic marginalization of certain birth months, that sorting would be important. I think comparing gender to birth months is hugely trivializing of the issue, honestly.
 
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It wouldn't be that hard to have a gender drop-down box on the WCA website and I don't know why it hasn't already been done. I'm not sure if this is exactly what rowan's proposing but I think this would be an easy first step that doesn't hurt anyone (I guess sexism could be an issue) and is beneficial as rowan pointed out.
 
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That's entirely what I'm suggesting. It's a pretty simple addition and there doesn't really seem to be any good arguments against doing so.

The WCA already collects gender data.
 
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That's entirely what I'm suggesting. It's a pretty simple addition and there doesn't really seem to be any good arguments against doing so.

The WCA already collects gender data.

If I were you, I would e-mail the WCA board ([email protected]) clearly outlining your proposal and reasoning and see what they have to say. You can link to this thread as well to show where general opinion is on this matter.
 
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I agree with Rowan and Methuselah96, but where is the point of ridiculousness? Should birth mouths be included? What else? And is it really beneficial if the information already exist externally?

If someone could provide evidence that a certain birth month was underrepresented and that having access to that information increased performance in competitions, it would be beneficial, but I don't really see any arguments for that. The one posted here was sarcasm. However, studies have shown that in non-physical sports, when women compete against other women they perform to the best of their ability. It also just lets starting female cubers know that other female cubers exist, because you honestly couldn't tell from the majority of rankings. I guess I just don't think people should have to go searching for the information, it should be easy to find.
 
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