Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

[Michael45764]

I talked with some of the judges at the competition. What they told me was that they talked with some WCA officials ad they are approving the time as a WR within a few days but that they also have some important announcement to make.

 

[sneaklyfox]

The malfunction rate of Generation II Speedstacks timer is extremely low. As an owner of both Gen II Speedstacks and QJ timers, I can personally say that comparing the two is like comparing a Ferrari with an RC car.

Regarding timer malfunctions, I think I had roughly 5 DNFs in my comp due to timer issues. I don't necessarily mean malfunctions. At least 4 of them were apparently because I accidentally stopped the timer within the first <0.2 seconds of the start of the solves. I am not sure how this happened... is it the way I move my hands off the timer? I only have a QJ timer at home and I know it is not as sensitive as the timers at the comp (I believe they were Gen IIs.) So my QJ never did anything like that at home maybe because grazing it did nothing. I was also used to slamming my QJ timer a little harder because otherwise it might not stop at all. The other DNF at the comp might have been due to the slamming? Because it was definitely running and when I put my hands down it went to -- -- -- or something like that (I forget exactly what it looked like). The annoying part is that they couldn't recreate the malfunction so I could not get a rescramble on it. Of course, it always works fine for the delegate/judge... it just doesn't like me... Sorry for getting a little off topic.

Has anyone considered having the timer on the other side of the cube (on the further side of the table?) Because you can't cheat the way Kuti does it with wrists/arms.

 

[XTowncuber]

I talked with some of the judges at the competition. What they told me was that they talked with some WCA officials ad they are approving the time as a WR within a few days but that they also have some important announcement to make.

If this is true I will burn all my cubes, go insane, and live as a hermit for the rest of my life. I will NOT see a solve as fake as this at the top of the single records.

 

[sneaklyfox]

Ok, so *worst case* it gets accepted as WR single. Not like anybody is actually going to think of him as the fastest in the world or even close. This will just be remembered as a controversial record. Or officially it is but unofficially it isn't in many people's minds.

 

[JF1zl3]

Ok, so *worst case* it gets accepted as WR single. Not like anybody is actually going to think of him as the fastest in the world or even close. This will just be remembered as a controversial record. Or officially it is but unofficially it isn't in many people's minds.

Any inexperienced non-cuber may stumble upon WCA and find this guy and think "he must be the fastest, no doubt", ya know? I never researched stuff like that, I just believed what I was told.

If this is true I will burn all my cubes, go insane, and live as a hermit for the rest of my life. I will NOT see a solve as fake as this at the top of the single records.

I will post this yet again

The 3x3 average IS all that matters.

Whether this guy's solve is legit or not shouldn't affect your opinion on the validity of cubing. You should come across the fact that easy scrambles, and EXTREMELY easy scrambles happen, that's why people put L single and NL single when they are posting their PBs. There have been hundreds of competitions with thousands of competitors, it is irrational to think that something like this couldn't actually happen through pure chance of truly random scrambles. Although I personally agree that it is fake, my point is that this will almost certainly happen again and be legitimate by a sub-10 solver that most people aren't as familiar with as they would be faz or 5BLD or valk. And there will be speculation, and there will be suspicion, and there will be haters and disbelievers, but it will ultimately be proven legit. Or not be proven, but either way it will happen and be approved by the WCA board. However, that is his LUCKY single, he still has 4 more solves to do, and unless he gets 4 more EXTREMELY lucky solves, his average will reflect his skill much more accurately. And since the best and worst times are omitted and the remaining 3 become mo3, his L single isn't even factored into the average.

 

[Noahaha]

I will post this yet again

Telling people what to care and not care about hardly consists of a valid argument when the integrity of the WCA is at stake.

 

[JF1zl3]

Telling people what to care and not care about hardly consists of a valid argument when the integrity of the WCA is at stake.

It isn't intended to be a valid argument, it is supposed to be something to console people, in this case XTowncuber, from being so upset, about the unlikely worst case scenario that the WCA approves this record, from quitting cubing. I am just trying to find a light side is all. It being that lucky singles are bound to happen, so we should value the average more than the single by default.

 

[Fili]

If it gets accepted there won't be much difference... I mean, he won't be able to repeat that (or something even close) in front of the media so hopefully it will get the lucky/official-unofficial status it deserves and the credit will go to the guys who are really fast

 

[Carrot]

Some additional solutions I found:
Start: D' L F' D' F' U2 F R U R'
17 move triple x-cross with "R U R'" last insertion:
L D2 F D' L2 F L

21 move F2L: (or 27 move till PLL, a-perm though)
L D2 F2 D2 F2 D2 F D2 F D' L' ( or slight variation to skip OLL ) L D2 F2 D2 F2 D2 F D2 F D' B L' F L B' L' F'

22 move F2L:
L F2 D2 F2 D2 F' D L2 D' F' D L

If this is true I will burn all my cubes, go insane, and live as a hermit for the rest of my life. I will NOT see a solve as fake as this at the top of the single records.

My pyra rankings might be safe if this gets aknowledged as WR then, YAY!!

 

[Natanrig]

First post here.
I have noticed people talking about the cube with black stickers. I believe that if you look at this "new" video, it is clear that the cube with black stickers is not the WR cube. I think there are three cubes involved: The WR cube, which can be seen being picked up and taken away by the judge (in purple T-shirt), the Guhong Y (see later) which Martín uses to explain something to Uriel, and the black-stickered cube that he also produces from his bag (?). Also, it may be worth noting that when asked about the cube he uses, Martín said he submitted his Guhong X, although his main cube is the Guhong Y. I am not about to go digging for the post in the Mexican facebook group, too busy.
Also, I believe I saw a post or comment by the judge which establishes that the solve was fast indeed. I doubt it could have been a timer malfunction or early stoppage.

 

[Faz]

we all need to wait for solid evidence, or the benefit of the doubt to be given to the cuber.

So is it up to Martin to prove that his solve was legitimate? (By a reconstruction)
Or is it up to the WCA to prove that it wasn't legitimate?

I've heard that the WCA can 'void a result without any evidence if they believe there is reasonable doubt'. Can anyone clarify or confirm this?

 

[Kirjava]

I've heard that the WCA can 'void a result without any evidence if they believe there is reasonable doubt'. Can anyone clarify or confirm this?

I was under the impression that the WCA board can pretty much do as they please.

I talked with some of the judges at the competition. What they told me was that they talked with some WCA officials ad they are approving the time as a WR within a few days but that they also have some important announcement to make.

I find this hard to believe.

 

[TMOY]

I've heard that the WCA can 'void a result without any evidence if they believe there is reasonable doubt'. Can anyone clarify or confirm this?

IIRC that's what happened witn Sebastian Pino. There was no absolute proof that he cheated, but the scrambles of his fake WRs really seemed too lucky to be honest.

 

[Kirjava]

Guys in THE video after 4.41 called new cube world record 4.41 he Has a cube At 1 min 28 sec that is THE cube that he used .
This cant be WR becuase :
1 it is scrambled so probably dnf
2 i Cannon scramble THE cube after a solve if you do it might be dnf or plus 2 so mats nothing to worry about

There's nothing in the regs that say you can't rescramble and solve your cube between attempts after the judge has inspected it.

Absolutely correct! It wasn't his last solve, so he shouldn't rescramble it.

Can do if he likes. You are allowed to change cubes between attempts even.

Also, he said that he switched to white cross mid solve, his cube doesn't even have a white side, but black.

Many people would refer to the cross made on the black side as "white cross".

 

[Robert-Y]

...Translation: ... The prereconstruction (POSSIBLE) of the first moves is this D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL although it is just an aproximation,...

This doesn't add much but I tried to apply these moves to the scramble 8 times, each with a different rotation before application of the said moves (no rotation, y ,y2, y', then again with these rotations + z2). In each case, it did not appear as though the solve was progressing at all. I was not close to a triple x-cross in any of the cases. The best I could get was 3 cross pieces solved, but no easy pairs.

Maelstrom: I'm not sure if that's a safe assumption...

 

[Swoncen]

I did not read the full thread but I want to share my thoughts:

1.) The guys cheer after the 4,41 solve and cheer just the same after the 18 seconds solve. Thats just wrong..
2.) A real lucky scramble is possible, but a person with a 20 seconds avg. has a lucky 15 sec. solve, a person with a 10 seconds avg. has a lucky 7 seconds solve. When I was active, Erik was the leader with 7.08 sec. and he averaged at 10 seconds I think. Imagine the possibility of such a lucky solve. How many solves are done by Erik in this time range? 10000-100000? I don't know, but one of those solves can be lucky and then you have such a time like Erik had. In addition, the solve is not on video, the cube is not solved after the world record, the person is known for cheating, etc. etc. If you take all this together, you can be sure that it is not legit. Unless there is a video of the solve, I will never believe that it was a world record. And if it is accepted as one, the record will last very long. In a few years, his name is there, but no one will even remember how he looks like, because it takes more than 1 fake solve!

 

[Kirjava]

Oh okih... scuse me while I (18 ave cuber) go get a new PB of *time it takes me to recognise and solve a y-perm in next solve* whilst turning at ~5-10tps.

LOL

Unfeasible does not mean impossible.

We should not be labelling this as known cheating yet. It's possible that this *could* be real, and you should remain objective before we have a decision.

Do we know that the 4th pair was 3 moves, and do we know that it was specifically R U R' ? Perhaps I just missed that information, can someone provide a link?

borre la publicación debido a que se podía dar a malos entendidos, en mi resolución me equivoque a la hora de ejecutar y después decidí improvisar algunos giros, me percate que dos pares del f2l estaban resueltos, así que decidí empezar a armar la cara blanca y en eso vi otro f2l resuelto, entonces busque el par restante que se resolvió con R U R' quedándome un oll skip y una J que resuelvo en menos de un segundo. la prerreconstrucciÓn (POSIBLE) de los primeros movimientos es esta D'L'R'U'DU2B2U'L'ULU'D'L'U'BL aunque no es pero es una aproximación, aun me encuentro trabajando en la verdadera reconstrucción pero es lo que hasta ahora he podido hacer. Mi juez y el delegado me preguntaron inmediatamente después de hacer el solve de como estaba el cubo (el patrón de la cruz amarilla que había decidido armar y el f2l) ( esto fue a mi parecer para revisar que el sramble fuese correcto) y se confirmo que mi resolución estuvo bien ejecutada con el scramble correcto.

 

[cmhardw]

Thanks for the quote, Kirjava.

I feel that those who are checking the FMC solution, to be thorough, should probably check all:

[AUF or no] R U R' [AUF or no] [right handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] R U R' [AUF or no] [left handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] L' U' L [AUF or no] [right handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] L' U' L [AUF or no] [left handeded J Perm]

If this is not already being done. So I count 64 scenarios (AUF can be U, U', U2, or nothing) at a minimum that should be run if people are going to try to reconstruct Martin's solve from the scramble.

In my opinion, if people are going to try to reconstruct his solution from the scramble, then do it properly and do it thoroughly. Don't check 16 of these cases and, if his described solution is not found, call him a cheater. His solve should not be marked as illegitimate based on a faulty verification method.

Having checked all possibilities, and not finding his solution, could mean that there is a strong possiblity that the scramble Martin solved was not the same as the official scramble for that attempt in the average. But that claim should not be made until every possible case for the reconstruction has been examined fully.

 

[Sin-H]

seriously, about the improving argument:

It took me roughly a year to get from "not cubing" to #12 in the World Rankings. Nowadays, the situation is different, but people are improving faster and faster. And don't forget his official average was DNF, 15, 15, 15, 19 (?), so he might have been around 15 anyway at his last comp.

The only hint we have towards his actual speed is the video of the second solve, which, in my well-educated eyes *cough* when it comes to speedcubing, doesn't look like he's improved at all But as whauk pointed out, who knows how one reacts to a never-in-your-dreams-expected fabulous world record solve.

A bad aspect of this being accepted for Martin is that legit or not, he's probably never gonna be able to be happy about any of his speedsolving results again

 

[qqwref]

I feel that those who are checking the FMC solution, to be thorough, should probably check all:

[AUF or no] R U R' [AUF or no] [right handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] R U R' [AUF or no] [left handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] L' U' L [AUF or no] [right handeded J Perm]
[AUF or no] L' U' L [AUF or no] [left handeded J Perm]

If this is not already being done. So I count 64 scenarios (AUF can be U, U', U2, or nothing) at a minimum that should be run if people are going to try to reconstruct Martin's solve from the scramble.

Don't forget to check for last layer on both U and D, and also, we really ought to check for the same insert from all four F2L pairs. So that's 4*4*8*2=256 scenarios ignoring the first AUF :|

Also, the worry I have with these extremely specific FMC-checking attempts is that Martín could easily just say "yeah, maybe my memory was faulty, and it wasn't actually exactly what I said".

It took me roughly a year to get from "not cubing" to #12 in the World Rankings. Nowadays, the situation is different, but people are improving faster and faster.

Agreed, improving a lot in a year can be expected. But 4.41 is a very fast solve and I feel like someone would have to be very fast already (like 10 average) to improvise an xxxcross on a non-easy scramble they've never seen before, then recognize an OLL skip and do a fast J perm, all in 4.41 seconds on a stackmat. I would certainly be interested to see what his other times at the competition were (apart from the 4 and the 18) because that would help us decide whether 4.41 on that scramble is a theoretically possible fluke or an impossible occurrence.