Martín Telésforo "4.41 single" DNF - Perry Open, Mexico

[adragast]

qqwref, I accidently came up with 10 move F2L-1 while racing with Breandan the other day. And at one comp I accidently did 28 move OH solve. It is doable to find short solutions by accident.

I think he cheated though. He probably got like 7-9 but accidently stopped timer mid solve.

qqwref does not imply that it is impossible to find short solutions by accident. He simply tries to show that the scramble does not have a short solution to a J-perm which is supposed to be the used PLL (following an OLL skip).

 

[pjk]

QQ, have you submitted this evidence to the board? I think it's fairly important

I'd sure hope that the board pays attention to some of the stuff posted here without each person needing to manually submit to them. After all, the WCA is the community.

 

[Arsonist]

> implying the WCA can't run Cube Explorer by themselves

 

[Kirjava]

Nobody can prove the judge's signature on the paper was BEFORE the 4.41 solve, you can only disqualify his next 3 solves which were signed without any times on it. Hence not a good basis to disqualify the 4.41

You can say that the judge has shown to be unable to follow correct procedure (if this is the case) and this invalidates other judging he may have done.

> implying the WCA can't run Cube Explorer by themselves

Not at all, just saying that they may not have thought about doing this check.

qqwref, I accidently came up with 10 move F2L-1 while racing with Breandan the other day. And at one comp I accidently did 28 move OH solve. It is doable to find short solutions by accident.

Nothing fewer than 17 move F2L was possible on this scramble.

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

> implying the WCA can't run Cube Explorer by themselves

> Implying that the WCA may run cube explorer to judge the validity of getting a very easy solution on that scramble.

The WCA would probably default to things like getting statements from people, before escalating to investigate the validity of the skip, since that's harder to get an objective handle on.

 

[Carrot]

Nothing less than 17 F2L was possible on this scramble.

True, but he could have found a sub 20 move F2L anyway. but I must admit 17/3.41 = 5 TPS... he averages above 15, so he is definitely not doing 5 TPS in every solve

 

[Sin-H]

but I must admit 17/3.41 = 5 TPS...

even more: try to do 5tps while improvising an optimal solution (which is usually not fingertrick-friendly) including an execution mistake (which usually leaves you staring at the cube for at least half a second) and saying "OHAI, I'MA SOLVE A DIFFERENT SIDE NOW" (it also takes time to decide if it's worth it, if he did that decision) - speedsolving ain't free jazz, to quote corny.

 

[CubeRoots]

qqwref you can do better than that with about 8 times more computation if you taken into account the last slot also. You could potentially find out that it takes 17 moves to get to: R U R' J perm AUF instead of just Jperm AUF. And so you could potentially increase the lower bound on solution legnth from 27 (=17+10) to 30

 

[jazzthief81]

I honestly don't believe this brings a lot of new evidence to the table.

The reconstruction he posted himself already implied that his F2L was 20 moves (17 moves 'improvising' and an easy RUR' pair to follow).

The fact the there is an optimal 17 move solution means that there could be dozens of other 17 move solutions (and there could be thousands if not millions that are 18, 19 or 20 moves long). Who's to say that one of them is not a nice finger-friendly solution that ends with a RUR' pair?

It's already well established that a random cube state has either a 17 or an 18 move solution in approximately 94% of the cases (see http://kociemba.org/performance.htm for empirical evidence). Solving a random state to a J perm gives the same distribution as solving a random state to the solved state. So no surprises there.

What's so special about improvising 17 moves? Don't people who use block-building methods improvise all the time?

 

[Sin-H]

Did he say he actually changed his side during solving?

Would be a reason for qq to run J+scramble on RLFB on Cube Explorer

yes, but if I remember correctly the quote said that he "switched to white" [his cube doesn't even have a white side] and started on yellow, so checking U/D is okay. I thought qq knew that, he already read the "switch to white" part.

 

[Dene]

I hope the WCA delegates won't let it happen! :/

Be careful now, this has nothing to do with the WCA delegates in general; only the one(s) involved with the competition matter. Rather, it is the WCA board, and possibly the IAC that this is relevant to.

 

[Kirjava]

I honestly don't believe this brings a lot of new evidence to the table.

It is not outright proof, but certainly interesting to note when you consider the other information presented.

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

Second page of this thread, second post:
"he got a 18.9 secs solve after his 4.41 secs"

Yes, but that still doesn't mean he can't turn that fast.

He may still average like 17+ or w/e but if you are cubing for a year you are going to improve in at least one way. I was just saying that it isn't impossible for him to be able to have that TPS since he's been cubing for a while. You can't say the 4.41 shouldn't count just because he got an 18 after that, since neither solve tells you anything about him.

Like I said, the focus should be on whether he was given a mis-scramble, or if not, what solution he used to get that time. These are the bits in question, not his TPS.

 

[ryanj92]

What were the other times in the average that wasn't the second solve? I'm not saying that it provides a remotely solid basis from which we can judge, but extra context is always good and I can't find the rest of the average...

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

/video/
They say it is a solve after the 4.41.

Ok fine, but in places he was turning fairly quickly.

You see, people seem to miss this so I'm going to write it bigger.

He has been cubing for a while and it is therefore possible for him to turn sufficiently quickly to pull of that solve if he did indeed get a 17move F2L + Jperm. The emphasis of this should be on whether or not this solution exists, or whether he knew it in advance, I would say that his skill level is not what should be brought into question here.

 

[KongShou]

Ok fine, but in places he was turning fairly quickly.

You see, people seem to miss this so I'm going to write it bigger.

He has been cubing for a while and it is therefore possible for him to turn sufficiently quickly to pull of that solve if he did indeed get a 17move F2L + Jperm. The emphasis of this should be on whether or not this solution exists, or whether he knew it in advance, I would say that his skill level is not what should be brought into question here.

No Chris the problem here is that even if an 17 move f2l and j exist, AND he executed it during the solve, he isn't skill enough to do it under 5 second, as you can see in the above video he has almost no look ahead whatsoever. If faz or mats claim to have done the same thing, I don't think many of us will be questioning the validity.

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

No Chris the problem here is that even if an 17 move f2l and j exist, AND he executed it during the solve, he isn't skill enough to do it under 5 second, as you can see in the above video he has almost no look ahead whatsoever. If faz or mats claim to have done the same thing, I don't think many of us will be questioning the validity.

No, because if he KNEW the solution, then look ahead isn't needed.

Also he does have the skill to pull it off, I think most people would. The problem is that because he isn't fast, people are quick to discredit. I'm not saying it should be allowed or w/e, I'm just trying to keep this thread CONSTRUCTIVE and move it away from the WITCH HUNT that is starting to take place.

 

[Goosly]

Yes, but that still doesn't mean he can't turn that fast.

Since I average around 17-18, I would like to get the reconstruction, practice the solve a few times and try to get 4.41. I highly doubt I would be able to do that, let alone doing that while improvising. Plus, mostly, an OLL-skip is so surprising that you stare at you cube in amazement for at least half a second.

I agree that a misscramble or a timer-stop during the solve might have occurred, and should be investigated, but I'm just trying to explain that a 4.41 solve, with improvising, is very suspicious for someone who averages 17

 

[MaeLSTRoM]

Since I average around 17-18, I would like to get the reconstruction, practice the solve a few times and try to get 4.41. I highly doubt I would be able to do that, let alone doing that while improvising. Plus, mostly, an OLL-skip is so surprising that you stare at you cube in amazement for at least half a second.

I agree that a misscramble or a timer-stop during the solve might have occurred, and should be investigated, but I'm just trying to explain that a 4.41 solve, with improvising, is very suspicious for someone who averages 17

Yeah I agree with that, but I also wouldn't say that he necessarily averages 17, because that would mean that he hasn't improved in just over a year, which I think is less likely.

Do bear in mind that another option is that he knew the scramble and solution in advance.

 

[KongShou]

No, because if he KNEW the solution, then look ahead isn't needed.

Also he does have the skill to pull it off, I think most people would. The problem is that because he isn't fast, people are quick to discredit. I'm not saying it should be allowed or w/e, I'm just trying to keep this thread CONSTRUCTIVE and move it away from the WITCH HUNT that is starting to take place.

We r not talking about him cheating to get the single, but if he is able to get the single legit. I don't know about you but when I was at 18s average a sub 10 single seem impossible to me, no matter how lucky. Cross was taking me 4sec at the time. Sub10single is still really rare for me, and I never had a sub 9. Even if its really lucky, u need to be sub10 to pull off a sub 5 single. He simply cannot do it.

Yeah I agree with that, but I also wouldn't say that he necessarily averages 17, because that would mean that he hasn't improved in just over a year, which I think is less likely.

Do bear in mind that another option is that he knew the scramble and solution in advance.

No the option of him knowing the scramble beforehand is not an option because it is cheating. And that is end of, his single is not legit, we can close this thread.