colour neutral. is it worth it??

Rubixcubematt

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hello everyone, i am basically colour neutral and im starting to think that only doing a cross on 1 side/ oposite sides is faster. i just did an average just using the white face as a cross, and it was a pb average of 12. what are your views, mine is that its quicker sticking 2 1 side.
 
hello everyone, i am basically colour neutral and im starting to think that only doing a cross on 1 side/ oposite sides is faster. i just did an average just using the white face as a cross, and it was a pb average of 12. what are your views, mine is that its quicker sticking 2 1 side.

I use what some people call "dual solving" where I always solve the best of either white or yellow (opposite colors on my cube). I don't really call this opposite cross anymore because I no longer consider one of these colors my "primary" color, leaving the other to be its "opposite". I can solve equally well with either color. I detail a little of my thinking as to why I prefer this strategy here:
http://www.speedcubing.com/chris/ec-oc.html

If you use the same line of thinking that I use on that site, then clearly color neutrality is far better. I personally don't want to put forth the effort to learn to get used to changing edges during the F2L phase, but if you do you reap the benefits of very high odds of getting easy cases. If you want to stick with color neutrality I say awesome. The odds of getting even something as simple as a good cross are phenomenal.

Say you get a super easy cross 10% of the time when solving with one color. That means, assuming you can analyze all colors equally well in under 12 seconds, then you will have a 1-(0.9)^6 = 47% chance to get a super easy cross when solving with color neutrality.

Food for thought,
Chris
 
i think that i will use the oposite colour solving method like you do. the look ahead isn't really affected at all. when i do colour neutral solves, my look ahead isn't that great, which ends up with a 30 second solve. i just did an average with oposite colour solving, and it was 23.37, only .05 of my pb, which i used oposite coulour solving as well :D
 
i am opposite-color as well, with white as dominant. if the white cross looks semi-difficult, i will check out the yellow one to see if its easier. i am not equally good at both like chris is, although i would like to be. Erik Akkersdijk is also a dual-solver, and his 7.08 WR was done on a yellow cross.

all in all, i think its enough to be a dual solver. you don't get as many lucky cases, but you are able to avoid the nasty ones.
 
i am opposite-color as well, with white as dominant. if the white cross looks semi-difficult, i will check out the yellow one to see if its easier. i am not equally good at both like chris is, although i would like to be. Erik Akkersdijk is also a dual-solver, and his 7.08 WR was done on a yellow cross.

all in all, i think its enough to be a dual solver. you don't get as many lucky cases, but you are able to avoid the nasty ones.

plus, IMO, your look-ahead is alot better. coz they r basically the same pieces
 
This answer can sum up the majority of questions about cubing.
What ever works for you.

I personally am neutral. Always have been. I find one face to be too confining for me. I can generally find a cross in about 4-5 seconds.

Rowe Hessler, Jason Thong and Sam Boyles are all neutral.
 
I am partially color neutral, I use white cross, but I can use the yellow if it's way easier. The other colors just kill my look ahead (which is pretty bad anyway)
 
i toy with opposite cross but it usually doesnt occur to me when im just messing around. i should probably implement it more. using other cross colours doesnt kill my times that badly... i use three different colours for cross anyway (yellow, white, and black on my white cube - the black replaces yellow) :)
 
This page has some statistics of how many moves it takes the solve the cross for color nuetral, opposite colors, and one cross color.
http://badmephisto.mine.nu/site/cross.php

I am partially color neutral, I use white cross, but I can use the yellow if it's way easier. The other colors just kill my look ahead (which is pretty bad anyway)
That's called solving the cross with opposite colors.
 
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This page has some statistics of how many moves it takes the solve the cross for color nuetral, opposite colors, and one cross color.
http://badmephisto.mine.nu/site/cross.php

That Site said:
Lars Vandenbergh analyzed this issue quantitavily and the whole page can be seen here. Here are the results summarized:

Averge number of moves to solve white cross: 5.81
Averge number of moves to solve dual cross: 5.39
Averge number of moves to solve neutral cross: 4.81

Looking at the results I am personally convinced that it is best to choose one color and stick with it

I don't think you can just look at the move count and determine which is best. If I used Fridrich and was color neutral or used dual cross I would pick the cross that had the most fluent moves, even if the other cross was one move more.
 
Say you get a super easy cross 10% of the time when solving with one color. That means, assuming you can analyze all colors equally well in under 12 seconds, then you will have a 1-(0.9)^6 = 47% chance to get a super easy cross when solving with color neutrality.

That can only be at best an estimate. You make the assumption that they're all independent. :P

I'm color neutral... with Petrus.
 

Yes I admit that it is an estimate. I also used a similar estimating approach for trying to find the expected number of solved centers in a center orbit for an odd cube (think 5x5 or 7x7 BLD).

My approach was to make it sort of like a binomial probability using:

sum(i goes from 0 to 24; i * (24 C i) * (1/6)^i * (5/6)^(24-i)) which equals exactly 4 on my TI-89. I haven't looked at the algebra of trying to show that it equals 4 without a calculator, but that's off topic for this post. From my experience with how many locations in my journeys that I use when memorizing, I feel like 4 already solved centers (about, or on average) per orbit feels accurate to what I have experienced.

My assumptions here are that each piece has (at all times) a 1/6 probability to land on it's same colored face and a 5/6 probability to land on the incorrect face. Imagine that you throw 24 stickers on to the cube and they are all sucked (randomly) to a sticker location and stick there. I feel like this method is inherently flawed (and thus only good as an estimate) because it sort of allows for the possibility that all stickers land on the same face, even though it would have a very small probability 6*(1/6)^24 or (1/6)^23 to be exact, but you see what I mean.

Still, from my experience this estimated calculation feels to be fairly accurate to the reality of blindsolving an odd cubes larger than n=4.

Chris
 
I always think that it would make sense to also calculate the probability that you make the right choice of the cross. What if you did the easy cross with horrible everything else? You can never check all possibilities in a speedsolve. That's why I prefer FMC.
 
The averages don't really do color neutrality justice. Yes, if you can always find the best color on the cube, then you save two moves overall. I'm completely color neutral and I always have been, it never occurred to me to always use the same color. I'm not particularly fast overall, I'm sup-30 in practice, but I can reliably solve my cross in 5 seconds.

I basically scan the cube for an easy cross, looking for edge/center pairs solved, especially any side with more than one edge, even if the edges are not permuted correctly. If I don't find an "easy" color, I quickly look for a color that has obvious good edges, then pick it. That all happens in the first five seconds of inspection, then I plan the rest of my cross. I'm not really good enough to plan an extended cross unless it's really obvious, I'm hoping that as I get better I'll recognize X-cross situations more readily.

When I find an "easy" color it's mostly just a single corner/edge pair connected, but maybe one in three scrambles has two corner/edges connected and maybe half of those, the two pairs are permuted correctly. That leads to a seriously fast cross, maybe two seconds. When I don't find an easy cross, I'm pretty much in the same boat as any solver, but because I look for a color that has at least a couple of "good" edges, I can almost always solve my cross in seven moves or fewer. Seldom to I use more than 9 moves for my cross, excepting what I'll describe next.

The funny thing (and this is a point to Lucas in his "finger friendliness" argument) when I have an easy color, I usually use more fingertricks to solve the cross. More often than not the edges will connect with their center, but not be permuted properly, so I will use a 5 move fingertrick to swap two adjacent edges after putting the other two correctly, or use R' u R' u' to flip a single edge in place. An easy color can lead to longer crosses in ftm, but because of the finger tricks, still end up fast.

I can see how memorizing the order of your equatorial center colors can help in your cross solution if you always solve the same color, but it really is simple to look at the two E centers you can see and deduce the colors all the way around in a split second.

Overall, I think I'll say it definitely took me longer to get decent at cross solving than if I'd started single color, but I think the benefits outweigh the effort.

The "average" of two moves saved belies two salient points:

1) I don't believe most people solve their cross optimally. Lucas G. has spoken most to this point, he's an uber fast solver in my book, but relies on "finger frienliness" to solve quickly as opposed to in the fewest moves. So, if the optimal solution is 7 moves and you use 9, the savings of finding an easy color with an optimal solution of 4 moves, but you use 6 is a much more significant savings.

2) It belies "holy crap" factor that when you do find a super cool 3 move cross on blue, it a) allows a ton more time to find your first pair and beyond, and b) fires you up for a good solve.

I don't believe that overall I benefit more than two or three moves per solve by being color neutral, but when I do, it's really, really awesome.

I wall add a footnote that there are some drawbacks to color neutrality. Single color solvers seldom find they've placed four edges, correctly oriented and permuted, around the wrong center. I do that. :-) They also don't have to worry about forgetting the color they're solving, I do that too, but you just have to look at the U center to remind yourself. These are things I'm actively working on.

Finally, I have a question for other color neutral solvers out there. As an experiment for a friend on the forum I went three weeks only solving cross on white. I didn't find any difference overall in my times (two Sunday contest averages after two and three weeks) or my efficiency in the cross (subjective impression). I'd like to hear about any other color neutral solvers that have done something similar or encourage you to try it yourselves and report back.
 
well i used to be colour neutral, but it was basically killing my look-ahead. i tried an average only using a white cross and i think it was, if not close, to my pb average of 12. and i was even quicker when using oposite sides :D
 
brunson has some nice points, although attributing them to me isn't exactly necessary.

Some things:
Most Japanese cubers are not color neutral. Yu Nakajima did a NINE-move cross in his OH world record (and move normally count matters even more in OH). However, he always has a ridiculously nice approach.

I think opposite-color solving is just fine for me, because it gives me some options, but I still always solve the same F2L colors, use bright colors for CLS recognition, etc.
Most importantly, I think: In opp-color solving (adjacent dual doesn't work as well), the cross face can contain any of the 8 corners. Therefore, if there's a ridiculous x-cross on any face, there must be a reasonable 2x2x2 on a face you can do.
2 opposite colors is definitely worth it. Going past 2 cross colors, you might as well do all, but I don't like it. :rolleyes:

(Note: I have a friend, Arthur, who solves either blue or yellow cross. :p)
 
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