[WCA Regulations 2012] Remove +2 penalty for misaligned sides

Phillip gave what is, for me, the best argument so far.

Basically you guys are saying that a set of scrambles like this would be fair:
1. U
2. L'
3. D2
4. B
5. F

That obviously sucks, then...

(Of course I don't like 2-move scrambles, too, but that's a different thread/topic/rule)

I agree it does not sound good to me. But if you apply this reasoning what about the guy who solved the cube, dropped it a bit too fast/clumsy/... and the cube pops. He is treated the same way as you first guy. It does not seem right either. In my example above, the guy shooting and hitting the bar should also get something better than a guy not touching the ball at all but it is not the case.

Well, I think a cube with 46 degrees off is a lot different than a cube missing a piece...And that's why we treat it differently.
 
Isn't this the current atmosphere in which blindfolded solvers have to compete? I.e. DNF for a small error.

Simply showing +2's in the WCA database, highlighted as red, may change the way that competitors finish their solves. Would you prefer a fast average recorded with 2-3 +2's against it or a clean fast average with no +2's?

Tim.

BLD events are different from the other ones, they have a whole different feel to them. To get a successful BLD solve requires accuracy, so small mistakes are obviously punished much more harshly in that if they happen during the solve you can't see what you did wrong and will probably get a DNF. It is a different type of event, and it's not the focus of discussion in this thread.

The second point I agree with. It would add a little more psychological reason to try and not +2 for most people. I would say that it is fair to do, and I would be happy to have any +2s I had in competition marked like this. It would probably be seen as a way of seeing how fast the average should have been without the mistake and highlighting that the competitor would have achieved it if they had not messed up (unless it was the highest time in an average, in which case the DNF would make no difference. This obviously doesn't apply to MO3). It would work especially well if they were on some boundary they wanted to beat and didn't because of the +2.

Edit: @Keyan: for your teacher analogy, you don't make your point well. In exams (let's use physics as an example), you provide working along with your final answer, so that you don't lose all your marks for one small error - you get marks for the parts that are correct since you show that you know what you were doing, but you don't get full marks for making a small error. In physics exams at school we were told that the marking system worked a follows: if you make a small maths error, you get some deduction in marks, while if you made a physics error they didn't mark any more of that question and you lost all the marks after the error. In a solve, you can make a solving error partway through and not notice until after you have done more solving and put the cube down - DNF, or make a small error at the end when stopping the timer is involved (which is not strictly solving, like the maths parts were not considered as essential in a physics test), but you have shown that the cube was solved other than a small error you get a small penalty (like getting a mark deducted for a small maths error.)
 
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Some of the arguments about the regulations are getting very heated, with people strongly defending opinions without thinking clearly about their justifications. So, I would like to tell a story about a specific regulation revisions took place 2005-2006, when I was joining the community.

It used to be that if your cube popped during an official solve, you could request an additional attempt. From the 2005 regulations:
In 'Best of' rounds solves with a puzzle defect cannot be exchanged by an extra attempt. If a puzzle defect occurs, the competitor may choose to repair the puzzle and continue the solve.

In 'Average of 5' or 'Mean of 3' rounds solves with a puzzle defect may be exchanged by an extra attempt, depending on the announcement for the competition. There may be maximum 1 extra attempt per round.

In the 2006 regulations, this changed to allow extra attempts only for 'Mean of 3' rounds. 2006 is also the only year we've had two major revisions of the regulations, and in the 2006v2 regulations, pops were no longer allowed:
"5c) If a competitor has a puzzle defect, this does not give him the right to an extra attempt."

At this time, the speedcubing.com UWR pages were still a central place where everyone posted their times, and which defined community standards. Macky provided a good argument for removing pops in a Dec. 2005 post. After the initial regulation change, there was a thread about whether competitors could intentionally pop a cube. After Ron's announcement of the 2006v2 (draft) regulations, there was another discussion about pops and the UWRs.


Here are some thoughts on this:

Some people believed there was no need to disallow pops. The fast cubers know and trusted each other, and there was no reason to believe someone would cheat. But it is easy to mistake the fact that you don't think you/someone else would/could abuse a rule with the fact that a rule can be easily misused. You might have tried to argue that a person should deserve another pop if the judge could tell it wasn't on purpose, because it wasn't their fault. I can't find it ight now, but I posting a comment saying that I received an extra attempt on a POP once, and that I was glad the rules allowed it. The rule was nice, and it could have been fair. But the fact is that that the rule did provide an advantage that people were simply used to.
(Also: Just because you don't think a rule can be abused doesn't mean it won't. We learned this the hard way in 2008 with BLD, but peopel succumb to this argument time and gime again. There is also such an aspect to +2s with BLD.)

I believe there are many things we're holding on to just because we're used to them, mainly:
  • Inspection time
  • +2 penalities for misalignments

Here's how I see most people arguing in this thread: You have an opinion and you're trying to come up with reasons to support it. Instead, you should be looking at the facts and seeing which stance it supports better.
Stefan its playing Devil's advocate against removing +2s because he's trying to help figure out if the arguments Chris is using are strong enough, and he's looking at it from the perspective of trying to understand how we should define "solving the puzzle" in a competition setting. Although the "how-it-looks-to-an-outsider" reasoning should be used with care, you should think of yourself as someone who is trying to understand the WCA Regulations for the first time. The +2 penalty can be justified, but is a historical courtesy, not an absolute solution. I don't think anyone would argue that the removal of POPs was a bad decision, and I believe that most of the reasoning for keeping +2s are similar reasons that justified allowing POPs.


Personal opinions:
I was against removing pops because I didn't understand things well enough at the time. I used to be against removing +2s, but this thread has done enough to convince me that most arguments arbitrary/emotional opinions or based on the fact that we're just used to them. I believe that competitions will work just fine if we remove the privilege of +2. Competitors still have fair chances to get an average, and if they want to avoid risking a +2 they should practice it like they would practice to avoid pops. Looking at all the reasons, I've come to the conclusion that I think it is better and simpler to define a cube either as solved or not (with no penalty inbetween), and I will ask the WRC to consider this change seriously.

Note: While I used to be against removeing inspection time, I think that it also makes much more sense that solving the puzzle should *not* allow for this. However, this is a much harder change to make to the regulations; in particular, it is a much harder *transition* to make from previous results. Removing +2 misaligment penalties is much more realistic.

P.S.: More history, because I don't think most people remember it. The rules about alignments have had two major changes in the past. One was that the allowable misalignment for a cube was up to 45 degrees instead of one piece touching the next. The other was that any number of slices on the same axis were allowed to be misaligned at once. Both were significant changes, but I don't think anyone has disputed that either was a reasonable decision. I think keeping the one-axis definition is good, and 45 degrees ("closer to a sovlved than not") is useful enough to make the limit.


tl;dr: Please try to look at this issue more objectively, and consider the fact that such "drastic" changes in the past have been good decisions. And: look at the highlighted sentences in the middle of this post.
 
You could have even explained why consistency would be detrimental. But instead you chose gibberish lolspeak. Thanks for your contribution?

Your argument was too ridiculous to warrant a proper response. You want a proper response? Fine. It's not important whether clock has a +2 rule or not. Consistency doesn't imply that there cannot be any exceptions. If clock is that one exception, so be it.

If you care so much about consistency, you should realize that new results under the non-+2 regulations would be inconsistent with old results. All previous +2 results should be DNFs but are not, and there is no way of changing this. Even if it were, since you care about fairness, would it be fair to retroactively say "Sorry, you had a +2 which is now a DNF, you are no longer [national/continental/world] champion, please return your prize money and trophy"?

With regards to multiBLD, Ron has already said that the ruling is to add +2 to each cube, even if it exceeds 10*n or 60 minutes. This is a very hypothetical occurrence anyway.

The +2 rule is already simple. If the turn is clearly under 45 degrees, the decision is obvious. If it is close to 45 degrees, the Delegate can be called over to make the final verdict. That is not complicated.

Their is no unfairness in using HTM for +2. CFOP solves can end using slice moves, and Roux solves can end using face turns. No method bias. STM metric should not be adopted for penalties, and especially not for FM. What about people who DNF because they ended a solve off by RL? Should we introduce an axial turn metric?

Your proposal is utterly ridiculous. The puzzle was not close to solved, in regards to distance from the solved state. Distance from the solved state is far more important than number of pieces unsolved.

I would like to conclude this post with some quotes. If anyone can guess who said them, they win an e-cookie.

I don't really have a response to this. I just think it's a really harsh stance to take. People make mistakes, why severely punish them for it? Is 2 seconds not enough of a punishment?
Another point I would like to make is that the same penalty applies to someone who does completely solve the cube (the purpose of the entire thing) and then overshoots, or the cube bounces and does a turn by itself. Why should a cuber be penalised because we do not have the technology to stop timing a solve as soon as it reaches the solved position?
All I'm saying is that we should not punish people because we lack the technological sophistication. It may have a negative side-effect as you pointed out, but let's be honest a +2 is a bad thing no matter what happens.
 
ALSO, imagine if when you popped a piece because you were being too rough with it (or for whatever reason) that your solve was automatically disqualified (because you are not allowed to take the cube apart and put it back together, kinda like you can't take off the stickers). Don't you think that would be a little harsh?

Yep, that would be too harsh. It would be also too harsh if we DNF solves from people who get POPs right after they release the cube and stop the timer (since that might also be a side effect of the timing procedure we're using). Oh, wait...

/edit: I'm obviously not the first one who brought up that argument...

(Of course I don't like 2-move scrambles, too, but that's a different thread/topic/rule)

Huh, why? One more move and it's a different topic? O_o
 
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Basically you guys are saying that a set of scrambles like this would be fair:
...
That obviously sucks, then...
What if tomorrow a competition is held where totally random scrambles result in five solves: A perm, U perm, T perm, H perm, X perm? What if a random blind scramble happens to be superflip? Competition results will never be perfect. It's just the way it is. I could see removing +2 while filtering short scrambles.

Edit: @Keyan: for your teacher analogy, you don't make your point well. In exams (let's use physics as an example), you provide working along with your final answer, so that you don't lose all your marks for one small error - you get marks for the parts that are correct since you show that you know what you were doing, but you don't get full marks for making a small error. In physics exams at school we were told that the marking system worked a follows: if you make a small maths error, you get some deduction in marks, while if you made a physics error they didn't mark any more of that question and you lost all the marks after the error. In a solve, you can make a solving error partway through and not notice until after you have done more solving and put the cube down - DNF, or make a small error at the end when stopping the timer is involved (which is not strictly solving, like the maths parts were not considered as essential in a physics test), but you have shown that the cube was solved other than a small error you get a small penalty (like getting a mark deducted for a small maths error.)
Not all schools are the same. I would bet that if you had never heard of this before, you would find it weird.

You want a proper response? Fine. It's not important whether clock has a +2 rule or not. Consistency doesn't imply that there cannot be any exceptions. If clock is that one exception, so be it.
If you care so much about consistency, you should realize that new results under the non-+2 regulations would be inconsistent with old results. All previous +2 results should be DNFs but are not, and there is no way of changing this. Even if it were, since you care about fairness, would it be fair to retroactively say "Sorry, you had a +2 which is now a DNF, you are no longer [national/continental/world] champion, please return your prize money and trophy"?
So you start by saying that consistency isn't important, then say that we can't change the rules because of inconsistencies created? Maybe you haven't been cubing long enough. Look at Lucas's examples. POPs. Reduced inspection time. Changed +2 definition. We haven't retroactively changed those. We can move forward without being chained by our past.

aronpm said:
With regards to multiBLD, Ron has already said that the ruling is to add +2 to each cube, even if it exceeds 10*n or 60 minutes. This is a very hypothetical occurrence anyway.
Uh, last I knew that wasn't true. 3/3 29:59 +2 = 2/3 30:00 Either way, it's kinda weird. And there's still the example I was actually talking about. 20 cubes with each cube off by one turn. 20 cubes with 19 solved and one off by two turns.

aronpm said:
The +2 rule is already simple. If the turn is clearly under 45 degrees, the decision is obvious. If it is close to 45 degrees, the Delegate can be called over to make the final verdict. That is not complicated.
I agree, not complicated. The complicated part is where we have an additional solve classification beyond "solved" and "not solved".

aronpm said:
Your proposal is utterly ridiculous. The puzzle was not close to solved, in regards to distance from the solved state. Distance from the solved state is far more important than number of pieces unsolved.
It was supposed to be ridiculous. Still uses the same logic that someone else used to justify +2. "They obviously know how to solve it." Is there a problem with the logic? If no, why is one acceptable and the other not? If yes, then that logic can't be used to justify +2.

Lucas, great post, thanks.
 
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I don't mind removing +2, but it might cause an issue with the future scramble filtering process.
How so? Just because there would be fewer states that we consider "solved"? I think this is a separate issue, to the extent that scramble filtering needs a good solution that doesn't depend on something like what we consider solved.
 
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How so? Just because there would be fewer states that we consider "solved"? I think this is a separate issue, to the extent that scramble filtering needs a good solution that doesn't depend on something like what we consider solved.

You're right actually, it doesn't cause an issue.

What is wrong with the solution of doing no filtering? (This might belong in another thread)
 
Lucas I see your points, and they are good ones. However, I am not so ready to accept that I should accept any change merely because all changes up to this point have been good ones. That seemed to be your tl;dr point. With the POP example, you can see a big advantage you get from abusing the former rule (you basically get a mulligan). But what advantage(s) (similar in weight to the former POP rule) do you think someone who abuses the +2 rule will get?

The reason why I brought up popping is because like a +2 and wearing headphones, you can't tell if they're doing it intentionally so they could cheat the system. Therefore, since it is not part of solving the cube in the conventional way, and since someone could abuse the privilege of allowing puzzle malfunctions, all solves involving pops or other similar puzzle malfunctions (like twisting an individual corner piece during solve) should be considered a DNF. If a person cares not to get a DNF then they should be more careful with their turning and choose more reliable puzzles.
 
But what advantage(s) (similar in weight to the former POP rule) do you think someone who abuses the +2 rule will get?

They get the advantage of taking that extra risk or being lazy. A more important question is, why should we favour the +2 rule in favour of the DNF that solves many regulation issues, as brought up by keyan? Is there any great disadvantage in getting a DNF rather than a +2, when either way it will probably be the worst solve in an average anyway? (Except for in the cases of means, but these only occur in events that take significantly longer times, and therefore the extra effort required to ensure the cube is completely solved in negligible in comparison).

Also, I would like to thank keyan for the time he put into working out those numbers. Stellar effort! And proves a great point, which I have been trying to stress throughout this thread, i.e., that changing the rule to DNF will not make much of a difference.
 
Dene, you don't think it makes much of a difference to you because I get the impression you've never been awarded a +2 (that you've ever cared about).

The difference is not in 'hard results'. I wonder how many of Keyan's were 'nearly' plus 2s that the competitor had to go back and fix before stopping the timer. The difference primarily affects the metagame, particularly in puzzles where stopping procedure is a higher percentage of the solving process (no comments about the validity of said events). I think in these events we will see a negative impact on times/the game, and I don't see how the arguments raised here are really enough to justify that.

The main hypothetical situations I can see the metagame changing considerably are in events that most of the people arguing for change are not experts in. I'm not saying this changes the validity of their arguments but I think it detracts from their familiarity with competitor strategies during rounds, and ability to see how much the new 'floor' function changes/damages the game.

I don't actually care too much about competing anymore (I realised I suck at it), so the rule change won't affect me so much. I just think regulation changes that damage the strategies of the top-end cubers are generally not positive changes, especially when the arguments to set this in motion are those from consistency (I don't see how clock regulations are relevant to other twisty puzzles bar the rubik's logo), simplicity (I don't see how judge incompetency should be important) and 'HTM choice'.

I'm not sure exactly what is so offensive about the +2 regulation - it does exactly what it is intended to do; saves competitors when they have made a last-second mistake or luck has bitten them, and punishes their time enough for it to be something to avoid, while not being something that might completely wreck their participation in the competition.

I'm going to call up the argument from conservatism and say when there is no clear direction it's best to do nothing. If people could tell me exactly how removing +2 helps work towards "more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions", that would be great. Especially since many people have brought up the issue that removing the plus 2 seems intuitively 'unfair', thus impeding the fun, and also calling into question what exactly we mean by 'fair'.
 
Normally a turn of the cube is pretty quick (less than a second).
If the person fails to make that last turn, they receive a +2.
This is x4 the time it would've taken them to turn it originally. (Generalizing a flick as .5 of a second.)

Heu?!?
And where's the proof the person would have made the right last turn?
How can you even assume the person wanted to solve it?
If we follow the logic behind the +2 rule, we could just say that all missing moves count as +2. All competitors would have a worst time around 40s without touching the cube.

A puzzle is solved, or it is not.
We're not doing poetry!
And why are so many of you talking about "luck"? It's beyond my understanding...

---------

By the way, I remember once, I had to declare a "+2" where 2 orthogonal slices were clearly not aligned. IE:
R/2 (angle <PI/2 - Article 10f )
U2 (angle >PI/2 - Article 10e1+10e3 )

---------

Last thought.
At my last competition I had two +2 in a round.
Without the +2 rule, I think I could have had a better average, since I would have been more cautious.

Gilles.
 
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I was not trolling at any stage. Perhaps I'm just getting it all wrong.

Dene, you don't think it makes much of a difference to you because I get the impression you've never been awarded a +2 (that you've ever cared about).

I get the odd +2, and I'm never happy about it.

The difference primarily affects the metagame...
I just think regulation changes that damage the strategies of the top-end cubers are generally not positive changes

"People are used to +2 therefore we shouldn't change it"

I'm not sure exactly what is so offensive about the +2 regulation - it does exactly what it is intended to do; saves competitors when they have made a last-second mistake or luck has bitten them, and punishes their time enough for it to be something to avoid, while not being something that might completely wreck their participation in the competition.

What I've been arguing the whole time is that we shouldn't have to save competitors, that is the risk they take and they should be treated appropriately. Also, keyan's numbers show what I largely suspected, in that almost no one would be affected by a DNF more than a +2.

I'm going to call up the argument from conservatism and say when there is no clear direction it's best to do nothing. If people could tell me exactly how removing +2 helps work towards "more competitions in more countries with more people and more fun, under fair conditions", that would be great. Especially since many people have brought up the issue that removing the plus 2 seems intuitively 'unfair', thus impeding the fun, and also calling into question what exactly we mean by 'fair'.

Plenty of clear direction has been given. Also, your reference to the motto is irrelevant. It's about what is best for speedcubing, not about keeping everyone happy, which is never going to happen. (Might I refer to the old POP rule change here, which, as Lucas alluded to, is very similar to this rule change in how people feel about it, and the result will be the same as well, i.e. people will get used to it and move on and everyone will be happy again).
 
Heu?!?
And where's the proof the person would have made the right last turn?
How can you even assume the person wanted to solve it?
If we follow the logic behind the +2 rule, we could just say that all missing moves count as +2. All competitors would have a worst time around 40s without touching the cube.

A puzzle is solved, or it is not.
We're not doing poetry!
And why are so many of you talking about "luck"? It's beyond my understanding...

---------

By the way, I remember once, I had to declare a "+2" where 2 orthogonal slices were clearly not aligned. IE:
R/2 (angle <PI/2 - Article 10f )
U2 (angle >PI/2 - Article 10e1+10e3 )

---------

Last thought.
At my last competition I had two +2 in a round.
Without the +2 rule, I think I could have had a better average, since I would have been more cautious.

Gilles.


Talk about inconsistency.

You talk about technicalities. You ask questions like, "How do we know he intended to solve it?" You ask how we even know he would made the right turn. You say its not technically "solved".

Yet, your last thought is, "without this rule, I would've gotten a better average." Oh yeah? How do I know you would've intended to solve it? How do I know that you would be cautious? How do I know that you would've made that last turn properly?

Don't you guys understand? You are being way too technical. No duh they intended to solve it. Why go to a comp to not solve it? The solve hundreds to thousands of times and you are questioning whether or not they actually even know how to align a misaligned U face?

Yes. if we followed the logic they could get times like that. Except we aren't stupid. We DON'T follow the logic for the WHOLE cube. It is ONE misaligned face.

pen3_2.jpg


If I went down the street with the cube looking like this. And asked every single person, regardless of age, if they were capable of solving it. There would would be none who couldn't do it. (Besides infants, Mentally impaired, and few other exceptions. Obviously we won't go into that.) Any person in their right mind could do it.

Why on earth would you even assume that there is slightest possibility that a person at a SPEEDCUBING comp solves the cube and is incapable of aligning the last face?

Yes. When it comes down to super technicalities (aka "There is the 1/10000000 possibility they might intend to use this rule which lengthens time to shorten their time.

Cmon. Lets be real.

No. We never will know the true intentions of the cubers. But its safe to say that MOST people are intending to solve.

So. If we are being all technical. Then yes, you guys are absolutely right. But, if we are being more real and putting it into REAL situations. Then no, you guys are absolutely wrong. (Or gals. I just generalize to guys.)

I posted again because I had questions directed at me.
 
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Ultimately this is a First World Problem and people will have to get used to it if the rules change, so either way I'm w/e.

But I honestly don't believe the +2 rule is causing as much damage to anything or anyone as to merit it's removal.

They get the advantage of taking that extra risk or being lazy.

If being lazy is an advantage then maybe we should get rid of the option of sitting in a chair. Lazy people shouldn't be allowed to compete.
 
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If I went down the street with the cube looking like this. And asked every single person, regardless of age, if they were capable of solving it. There would would be none who couldn't do it. (Besides infants, Mentally impaired, and few other exceptions. Obviously we won't go into that.) Any person in their right mind could do it.

The same is true for cubes off by M2 which is a DNF. So what's your point? We consider a cube "almost solved" (aka +2) if the average joe can solve it?
 
"People are used to +2 therefore we shouldn't change it"

...to something that damages your average (and meta) so severely. Taking the essence of my argument and not pitching it against something else is completely unhelpful. Your argument might as well be "+2 penalty should be changed to beheading" for all that oversimplification gives.

What I've been arguing the whole time is that we shouldn't have to save competitors, that is the risk they take and they should be treated appropriately. Also, keyan's numbers show what I largely suspected, in that almost no one would be affected by a DNF more than a +2.

Keyan's numbers strictly show the number of penalties that were awarded, nothing more, stop trying to use them to determine the effects of a regulation change.

Plenty of clear direction has been given. Also, your reference to the motto is irrelevant. It's about what is best for speedcubing, not about keeping everyone happy, which is never going to happen. (Might I refer to the old POP rule change here, which, as Lucas alluded to, is very similar to this rule change in how people feel about it, and the result will be the same as well, i.e. people will get used to it and move on and everyone will be happy again).

The directions may be clear, but whether to follow them isn't if it is only given by a noisy minority. How is my reference irrelevant exactly? Is that not the general aim of the regulations? To ensure more fun in a fair environment?

What is 'best for speedcubing' is irrelevant to this argument, since it's completely subjective. We should be worrying about changes to regulations within the context the regulations have created, not an 'absolute aim'.

The fact that 'people will get used to it' doesn't minimise the negative effect now. I'm sure people would get used to it if they changed 3x3 to mo3 to have shorter rounds and stop people from 'getting the advantage' of not having their worst time included.
 
Ah good, I see what you were saying more clearly now. But I am willing to put a lot of money on the fact that changing +2 to DNF will not significantly change the meta of people. At the most recent cubing meetup in Melbourne I was being very explicit in applying to myself a DNF in a case where I would normally +2, and it didn't change a thing at all. But of course this is hardly a useful sample. Perhaps it would be of more value to you if I were to set up a mini unofficial comp in Melbourne, applying the DNF rule and seeing how things turned out. Sure, the sample would still be small, but there are a range of different characters here to contribute to that sample, including perhaps one of the most important people in Feliks, seeing as you think the top-ranked cubers matter so much.

Seeing as this is your argument, I would like to see you argue convincingly for why you think this would affect the meta of top-ranked cubers so significantly as to deem it a poor choice in change. When giving your example I would like you to bear in mind the history of the POP rule, as that makes for a very good comparable case.


I would also add, about your comment on keyan's numbers, that the simple fact of the matter is, the vast majority of cubers won't know, nor care, about the DNF rule. In my experience as a delegate it is pretty clear that most people don't know the regulations very well, and that includes people that you would expect to at least be roughly familiar. Therefore these people don't have any particular meta in mind when it comes to misaligned slices at the end of solves, therefore the vast majority of people simply won't be affected by any change. Now I know you think top-ranked cubers are more important therefore we should consider them more, so you might think my point just here is useless, but then again, my point certainly applies to the "more fun for more people" thing that you seem so keen on (that is, it applies in the sense that it won't affect the amount of fun the vast majority of people have).
 
I think that the fact it would affect the meta of top-ranked cubers at all, weighed against the fact that most people, as you put it, 'dont know or dont care', means that a regulation change to that effect would only be a negative thing.

I'll reply properly tomorrow, no time now.
 
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