Pyraminx - Unscrambled tips (fairness) ?

Tim i dont think you have to say byebye to sub4avgs cause i think Odder Oka and Me and maybe some other pyrmainxer can do sub4 avg 100 with only 4tip :) it is not that hard i think

I remember at WC when us 4 were cubing (or minxing) and we were timing just 4 tips. The times were over a second. The average amount of tips is 2, so adding 2 more would add roughly .5s.

I agree it's possible, but definitely much harder.
 
Everything is scrambled. This entire thread is based upon an assumption you made that was wrong.
I didn't make any wrong assumption. I have looked on that code and found how the functions work. It just confirms what I was saying.

We let the scrambling program choose if a tip will be scrambled or not. We don't just scramble it and say "oops, that's an easy scramble"...the scrambling program just skips to scramble it!

Code:
...var j = Math.floor(Math.random() * 3)
if (j < 2)...
- The Math.random function randomly generates a number between [0; 1)
- Then we multiply it by 3.
- Math.floor will take the integer part of this number. So we will have {0,1,2}.
- When the j<2 cycle comes in, we just throw away the {2}s.

So, 33% the time (when the math.random is between 0.66 and 1) the tip will not get scrambled. It will not get scrambled because of a random function! Not because we chose so! Of course, every tip has to be taken into account, but it's just an illusion that all tips get scrambled because you see "for (i=0;i<4;i++)". It doesn't mean anything if after that "for" we put something that will block the scrambling process. And this is what happens in our case.

Now it's clear how the generator works and it just proves it works under my nr. 1 assumption above, not the 2nd. Is this the way we want a puzzle get scrambled?

The correct code, from my point of view, should be:

Code:
var tips=["l","r","b","u"];
  for (i=0;i<4;i++) {
   var j = Math.floor(Math.random() * [B][COLOR="red"]2[/COLOR][/B]);
   if (j < 2) {
    scramblestring[n] += tips[i] + ["","'"][j] + " ";
    picmove(4+i,1+j,n);
   }
  }
 
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I remember at WC when us 4 were cubing (or minxing) and we were timing just 4 tips. The times were over a second. The average amount of tips is 2, so adding 2 more would add roughly .5s.

I agree it's possible, but definitely much harder.

*cough* *cough* Our times was around one second, yours were over 2 seconds. The average number of tips are 2.667, so making all scrambles four tips will just add 1.33 tips, and if I am not mistaken our times were INCLUDING picking up the pyraminx, which is adding 0.3 to the time or so.

4 tips + picking up pyraminx = 1.20 (I think that was our average)
4 tips = 1.20 - 0.3 = 0.9
1.33 tip= 0.3

Which is a bit under your estimation :)
 
Now it's clear how the generator works and it just proves it works under my nr. 1 assumption above, not the 2nd.

No. If it does prove anything, then that it's your 2., not your 1.

In programming, we usually start with 0, not with 1 as in normal life. It's just an offset of one. Now in the program, note that the number 0 is then displayed as b (=b1), 1 is displayed as b' (=b2) and 2 is not displayed (=b3). That's precisely your 2.:

2. We can have the same scramble: U R B' L U u l, which actually comes from U R B' L U u b3 l r3 which obviously is the same. But there is a big difference in the way it gets scrambled. Every tip get scrambled, but the b3 and r3 obviously are not displayed as they bring the puzzle in a solved state.
 
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Ok. I understand your post and it's totally logical.
But when the generator was created, was it really meant to be like this?
If yes, do you agree with this thinking? Because, if we admit this as correct, it clearly results that we are accepting solved puzzle as scrambled ones if the generator gives us a solved scramble.

What do you think about my version of the code with "2" instead of "3"? It would always generate a puzzle with an unsolved tip..."b" or "b'" for ex. Wouldn't this be the fair solution? And the best way to see this "fairness" is by thinking at the puzzle with 100tips in the example in the first post. It's not fair to give someone to solve 100 tips and to someone else 75.

We basically return to the first post of the topic.
 
This is exactly the same argument for filtering BLD scrambles. Sometimes random pieces are solved, sometimes they're not, they should average out, which is why the competitions look at averages.
I get your point though. But I still think it's more fair to just stick to it being random, rather than forced to be a 'hard random'
 
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But when the generator was created, was it really meant to be like this?

No idea. That's why I said "If it does prove anything". You can't tell from the code, but if you try, I think my argument is more direct.

it clearly results that we are accepting solved puzzle as scrambled ones

Only if you artificially consider the tips separate puzzles, and you seem to be the only one doing that.

What do you think about my version of the code with "2" instead of "3"?

Looks noobish, there's no point testing for <2 if you limited it to <2 already.
 
Only if you artificially consider the tips separate puzzles, and you seem to be the only one doing that.
Why wouldn't this be a puzzle? I consider a 1x1x2 still a puzzle. The simplest one that can possibly be...but it is one. It can be scrambled an solved. It has 2 states. The same goes for the tips...a puzzle with 3 states. Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks like that...

Looks noobish, there's no point testing for <2 if you limited it to <2 already.
The point is that "var j = Math.floor(Math.random() * 2);" will always give a scrambled tip, therefore we will have a scrambled puzzle. Of course if we regard the tip as one.
 
I didn't make any wrong assumption. I have looked on that code and found how the functions work. It just confirms what I was saying.

You made a wrong assumption. You don't understand the code. It contradicts what you were saying.

Also, I really wish you would realise how insane you sound when you say that you consider the pyraminx as more than one puzzle.
 
Why wouldn't this be a puzzle? I consider a 1x1x2 still a puzzle. The simplest one that can possibly be...but it is one. It can be scrambled an solved. It has 2 states. The same goes for the tips...a puzzle with 3 states. Maybe I'm not the only one who thinks like that...

If the event was a single 1x1x2, then you're right it would be meaningless to give a competitor it solved (although even scrambled it is just a +2). However if the event was a whole series of 1x1x2 puzzles in a row, then it would be fine for some of them to naturally be solved.

Or... you could say the edges/centers on a higher order cube are individual puzzles in themselves... would you remove a 4x4 scramble if one edge pair was already made? If you keep reducing puzzles you get into crazy territory, like the 4 main steps in Fridrich are solved in different ways (at least the first 3 are), are they seperate puzzles?
 
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Why wouldn't this be a puzzle? I consider a 1x1x2 still a puzzle. The simplest one that can possibly be...but it is one. It can be scrambled an solved. It has 2 states.

I would've guessed 4 states.

And yes it *would* be a "puzzle" if it were on its own, but here it isn't on its own. Here it's part of the bigger puzzle.

Do you also count "Bucharest" as more than one word? After all, "rest" is a word...
(edit: should've used "speedcubing", cause "Bucha" isn't a word (that I know))
 
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Code:
 var tips=["l","r","b","u"];
  for (i=0;i<4;i++) {
   var j = Math.floor(Math.random() * 3);
   if (j < 2) {
    scramblestring[n] += tips[i] + ["","'"][j] + " ";
    picmove(4+i,1+j,n);
   }
  }

Looks like they all get scrambled to me.


j is used an array index
it will indeed be 0,1,2

if j=0 the tip will be added to the scramble
if j=1 then tip' will be added to the scramble
if j=2 then the tip will not be added to the scramble
 
Isn't this the point of an average?

This is all about screening scrambles, and if we were to do it...why would we scramble all 4 tips? I think everyone would prefer it if no tips were scrambled...Then we can change the event to Tetraminx!

Also, Bucharest can be rearranged and "scrambled" into 475 different words and phrases (just English too!). Admittedly some words are not ones that most people would ever have heard of...

A Butchers
Beach Rust
Beach Ruts
Brace Shut
Brace Thus
Brace Tush
Brace Huts
Braces Hut
Batch User
Batch Ruse
Batch Rues
Batch Sure
Bracts Hue
Bract Hues
Rehab Cuts
Rehabs Cut
Bathes Cur
Bathe Curs
Bate Crush
Beat Crush
Beta Crush
Abet Crush
Bah Cruets
Bah Truces
Bah Eructs
Brash Cute
Bash Truce
Bash Cruet
Bash Eruct
Bash Cuter
Baths Cure
Baths Ecru
Bahts Cure
Bahts Ecru
Bath Curse
Bath Cruse
Bath Ecrus
Bath Cures
Baht Curse
Baht Cruse
Baht Ecrus
Baht Cures
Bar Chutes
Bra Chutes
Bras Chute
Bars Chute
Bursa Etch
Bursa Tech
Ache Burst
Each Burst
Reach Tubs
Reach Stub
Reach Bust
Chaser Tub
Chaser But
Arches Tub
Arches But
Search Tub
Search But
Cheats Rub
Cheats Bur
Sachet Rub
Sachet Bur
Chaste Rub
Chaste Bur
Scathe Rub
Scathe Bur
Teach Burs
Teach Rubs
Cheat Burs
Cheat Rubs
Caster Hub
Carets Hub
Recast Hub
Caters Hub
Traces Hub
Reacts Hub
Crates Hub
Recta Hubs
Recta Bush
Cater Hubs
Cater Bush
React Hubs
React Bush
Trace Hubs
Trace Bush
Caret Hubs
Caret Bush
Carte Hubs
Carte Bush
Crate Hubs
Crate Bush
Arch Tubes
Char Tubes
Crash Tube
Chars Tube
Cash Tuber
Cash Brute
Cash Rebut
Chats Rube
Chat Rubes
Chat Rebus
Hearts Cub
Earths Cub
Haters Cub
Earth Cubs
Heart Cubs
Hater Cubs
Heats Curb
Haste Curb
Hates Curb
Heat Curbs
Heat Scrub
Hate Curbs
Hate Scrub
Eras Butch
Ears Butch
Sear Butch
Ares Butch
Sera Butch
Tares Chub
Aster Chub
Tears Chub
Rates Chub
Stare Chub
Tare Chubs
Tear Chubs
Rate Chubs
Trash Cube
Harts Cube
Hart Cubes
Hast Cuber
Shat Cuber
Hats Cuber
Hat Cubers
As Butcher
Sat Cherub
At Cherubs
A Butch Res
A Chub Erst
A Chub Rest
A Curbs The
A Scrub The
A Herb Cuts
A Herbs Cut
A Bet Crush
A Hub Crest
A Burs Etch
A Burs Tech
A Rubs Etch
A Rubs Tech
A Rub Chest
A Rub Techs
A Bur Chest
A Bur Techs
A Sub Chert
A Sub Retch
A Bus Chert
A Bus Retch
Cab He Rust
Cab He Ruts
Cab Eh Rust
Cab Eh Ruts
Cab She Rut
Cab Hes Rut
Cab Re Shut
Cab Re Thus
Cab Re Tush
Cab Re Huts
Cab Res Hut
Cab Erst Uh
Cab Rest Uh
Batch Re Us
Crab The Us
Crab Set Uh
Bract He Us
Bract Eh Us
Cabs He Rut
Cabs Eh Rut
Cabs Re Hut
Scab He Rut
Scab Eh Rut
Scab Re Hut
Bah Sec Rut
Bah Cur Set
Bah Cuts Re
Bah Cut Res
Bash Cut Re
Bath Rec Us
Baht Rec Us
Bar Etch Us
Bar Tech Us
Bar Sec Hut
Bar Sect Uh
Bar Cuts He
Bar Cuts Eh
Bar Cut She
Bar Cut Hes
Bra Etch Us
Bra Tech Us
Bra Sec Hut
Bra Sect Uh
Bra Cuts He
Bra Cuts Eh
Bra Cut She
Bra Cut Hes
Bras Cut He
Bras Cut Eh
Bars Cut He
Bars Cut Eh
Brat Sec Uh
Abs Rec Hut
Abs Curt He
Abs Curt Eh
Abs Cur The
Abs Cut Her
Tabs Rec Uh
Tabs Cur He
Tabs Cur Eh
Bast Rec Uh
Bast Cur He
Bast Cur Eh
Stab Rec Uh
Stab Cur He
Stab Cur Eh
Bats Rec Uh
Bats Cur He
Bats Cur Eh
Tab Recs Uh
Tab Such Re
Tab Curs He
Tab Curs Eh
Tab Cur She
Tab Cur Hes
Bat Recs Uh
Bat Such Re
Bat Curs He
Bat Curs Eh
Bat Cur She
Bat Cur Hes
Arch Bet Us
Char Bet Us
Chart Be Us
Cash Be Rut
Cash Tub Re
Cash But Re
Chat Sub Re
Chat Bus Re
Car Be Shut
Car Be Thus
Car Be Tush
Car Be Huts
Car Bets Uh
Car Best Uh
Car Hub Set
Car Tubs He
Car Tubs Eh
Car Stub He
Car Stub Eh
Car Bust He
Car Bust Eh
Car Sub The
Car Bus The
Car Tub She
Car Tub Hes
Car But She
Car But Hes
Arc Be Shut
Arc Be Thus
Arc Be Tush
Arc Be Huts
Arc Bets Uh
Arc Best Uh
Arc Hub Set
Arc Tubs He
Arc Tubs Eh
Arc Stub He
Arc Stub Eh
Arc Bust He
Arc Bust Eh
Arc Sub The
Arc Bus The
Arc Tub She
Arc Tub Hes
Arc But She
Arc But Hes
Scar Be Hut
Scar Bet Uh
Scar Tub He
Scar Tub Eh
Scar But He
Scar But Eh
Arcs Be Hut
Arcs Bet Uh
Arcs Tub He
Arcs Tub Eh
Arcs But He
Arcs But Eh
Cars Be Hut
Cars Bet Uh
Cars Tub He
Cars Tub Eh
Cars But He
Cars But Eh
Carts Be Uh
Cart Sub He
Cart Sub Eh
Cart Bus He
Cart Bus Eh
Sac Be Hurt
Sac Be Thru
Sac Rub The
Sac Bur The
Sac Tub Her
Sac But Her
Cats Hub Re
Cats Rub He
Cats Rub Eh
Cats Bur He
Cats Bur Eh
Cast Hub Re
Cast Rub He
Cast Rub Eh
Cast Bur He
Cast Bur Eh
Scat Hub Re
Scat Rub He
Scat Rub Eh
Scat Bur He
Scat Bur Eh
Acts Hub Re
Acts Rub He
Acts Rub Eh
Acts Bur He
Acts Bur Eh
Act Be Rush
Act Herb Us
Act Hubs Re
Act Bush Re
Act Hub Res
Act Burs He
Act Burs Eh
Act Rubs He
Act Rubs Eh
Act Rub She
Act Rub Hes
Act Bur She
Act Bur Hes
Act Sub Her
Act Bus Her
Cat Be Rush
Cat Herb Us
Cat Hubs Re
Cat Bush Re
Cat Hub Res
Cat Burs He
Cat Burs Eh
Cat Rubs He
Cat Rubs Eh
Cat Rub She
Cat Rub Hes
Cat Bur She
Cat Bur Hes
Cat Sub Her
Cat Bus Her
Ha Curb Set
Ha Cub Erst
Ha Cub Rest
Ha Be Crust
Ha Be Curst
Ha Bets Cur
Ha Best Cur
Ha Bet Curs
Ha Rub Sect
Ha Bur Sect
Ha Tubs Rec
Ha Stub Rec
Ha Bust Rec
Ha Tub Recs
Ha But Recs
Ah Curb Set
Ah Cub Erst
Ah Cub Rest
Ah Be Crust
Ah Be Curst
Ah Bets Cur
Ah Best Cur
Ah Bet Curs
Ah Rub Sect
Ah Bur Sect
Ah Tubs Rec
Ah Stub Rec
Ah Bust Rec
Ah Tub Recs
Ah But Recs
Rah Cub Set
Rah Be Cuts
Rah Tub Sec
Rah But Sec
Rash Be Cut
Has Be Curt
Has Bet Cur
Has Tub Rec
Has But Rec
Ash Be Curt
Ash Bet Cur
Ash Tub Rec
Ash But Rec
Hast Cub Re
Hast Be Cur
Shat Cub Re
Shat Be Cur
Hats Cub Re
Hats Be Cur
Hat Cubs Re
Hat Cub Res
Hat Be Curs
Hat Rub Sec
Hat Bur Sec
Hat Sub Rec
Hat Bus Rec
Tsar Cub He
Tsar Cub Eh
Star Cub He
Star Cub Eh
Rats Cub He
Rats Cub Eh
Arts Cub He
Arts Cub Eh
Tars Cub He
Tars Cub Eh
Rat Cubs He
Rat Cubs Eh
Rat Cub She
Rat Cub Hes
Rat Be Such
Rat Hub Sec
Art Cubs He
Art Cubs Eh
Art Cub She
Art Cub Hes
Art Be Such
Art Hub Sec
Tar Cubs He
Tar Cubs Eh
Tar Cub She
Tar Cub Hes
Tar Be Such
Tar Hub Sec
As Butch Re
As Curb The
As Herb Cut
As Rub Etch
As Rub Tech
As Bur Etch
As Bur Tech
Sat Chub Re
Sat Curb He
Sat Curb Eh
Sat Cub Her
Sat Hub Rec
At Chubs Re
At Chub Res
At Curbs He
At Curbs Eh
At Scrub He
At Scrub Eh
At Curb She
At Curb Hes
At Cubs Her
At Cub Hers
At Be Crush
At Hubs Rec
At Bush Rec
At Hub Recs
 
So, 33% the time (when the math.random is between 0.66 and 1) the tip will not get scrambled. It will not get scrambled because of a random function! Not because we chose so!
Uh, what? Did you read the code? The function picks between [no turn, clockwise turn, counterclockwise turn] randomly for each tip, and prints the correct algorithm based on what it chose. It really does choose a random position. Your two points are exactly the same: there is no difference between choosing to not scramble a tip (and thus printing nothing) and choosing to scramble it by the equivalent of 0 degrees (and thus printing nothing).

The correct code, from my point of view, should be:
This code is not "corrected" at all. In fact, it simply accomplishes a different task: to randomly choose one of the possible positions in which none of the tips remain solved, as opposed to what we do now, which is randomly choosing one of the possible positions with no restrictions.

Radu, I'd say you should read the topic again before responding, because you don't seem to understand what other people are saying. The question of whether it's even correct to discard obviously easy scrambles has been brought up, and deserves discussion, but your recent posts completely ignore this debate.

Do you also count "Bucharest" as more than one word? After all, "rest" is a word...
(edit: should've used "speedcubing", cause "Bucha" isn't a word (that I know))
Or perhaps "Budapest" ;)
 
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However if the event was a whole series of 1x1x2 puzzles in a row, then it would be fine for some of them to naturally be solved.
Why? I don't agree with this. Shouldn't all competitors have, if possible, the same difficulty for the puzzle? I don't think it's correct to give some to solve 10 1x1x2 and others 5, just because the generator "says" so...
Or... you could say the edges/centers on a higher order cube are individual puzzles in themselves... would you remove a 4x4 scramble if one edge pair was already made?
No. Because for pyraminx it's something different and I mentioned also in the initial post. The tips can be solved totally independent from the rest of the puzzle. They don't influence the solve of the main body. Which is not the case for any other puzzle. This is why I think they can be regarded as a different puzzle.
I would've guessed 4 states.
I was thinking at a more simple 2D puzzle when I posted that :). Where only a U2 would solve it.
Uh, what? Did you read the code? The function picks between [no turn, clockwise turn, counterclockwise turn] randomly for each tip, and prints the correct algorithm based on what it chose.)
Exactly. And my main question was if you think that "no turn" is a fair scrambling pick for the pyraminx' tip? Because I don't really think it is.
Actually I haven't got a clear answer from anybody until now...just some, more or less, vague opinions which I understand that don't really agree with my point of view and consider a solved state of the tip fair.
I'm ok with that :). Maybe I'm the only one who sees it like this. (As I said, I'm not pretending now to change the regulations because of this).
This code is not "corrected" at all. In fact, it simply accomplishes a different task: to randomly choose one of the possible positions in which none of the tips remain solved, as opposed to what we do now, which is randomly choosing one of the possible positions with no restrictions.
Maybe "corrected" was not the right word. :) It's just the code which I consider the "fair" one.
 
No. Because for pyraminx it's something different and I mentioned also in the initial post. The tips can be solved totally independent from the rest of the puzzle. They don't influence the solve of the main body. Which is not the case for any other puzzle. This is why I think they can be regarded as a different puzzle.
your saying that you cant solve the centres on a big cube with out effecting anything else?
 
Seriously, your only constructive post in this topic was when you pasted the scramble, the rest is only rubbish trying to tell me that I'm wrong. Even if the others don't seem to really like my point of view, at least they had some interesting comments. You can skip this topic and let others bring arguments. You're not obliged to read or post here.

After reading the first post you could have said like "I think you're not right, the tips get scrambled, but they get in the solved state. I don't have a problem with that" or "Maybe you're right, it's not fair to randomly let the scrambler give the competitors to solve different number of tips"....instead of just writing every post that I'm wrong.

I don't know how you deduct that the scrambler works under the 2nd principle... At a first sight, for me it works under the 1st as it skips the scrambling of a tip...and the same for radmin from what I understand in his post. Stefan said that if that code proves anything, it proves the that it works under 2nd one. And I realized his statement is true too....actually you cannot conclude from the code, what is the real reason why it works like this.
 
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actually you cannot conclude from the code, what is the real reason why it works like this.

Oh come on, this is obviously the only reasonable way a Pyraminx scrambler could work. It just chooses a random position for every tip. That's it. What else would be reasonable to scramble tips? I don't see any other options at the moment.

Also as qq already pointed out, your 2 ways of scrambling mentioned earlier in the thread are equivalent as they result in exactly the same probability distribution. You just seem to completely ignore that.

Eventually I understand wh you say, that Pyraminx -Tips differ from any other kind of pieces that we know from Speedcubing puzzles. But what you need to understand is, that your argumentation makes no sense speedcubingwise. We just regulary skip moves at every kind of puzzle. So why not for Pyraminx? An unscrambled tip is still way fairer as an unforced LL-Skip.

So here is my clear answer to you: I don't consider unscrambled tips as unfair in any way.
 
Seriously, your only constructive post in this topic was when you pasted the scramble, the rest is only rubbish trying to tell me that I'm wrong. Even if the others don't seem to really like my point of view, at least they had some interesting comments. You can skip this topic and let others bring arguments. You're not obliged to read or post here.

After reading the first post you could have said like "I think you're not right, the tips get scrambled, but they get in the solved state. I don't have a problem with that" or "Maybe you're right, it's not fair to randomly let the scrambler give the competitors to solve different number of tips"....instead of just writing every post that I'm wrong.

ahahahaha

I don't know how you deduct that the scrambler works under the 2nd principle... At a first sight, for me it works under the 1st as it skips the scrambling of a tip...and the same for radmin from what I understand in his post. Stefan said that if that code proves anything, it proves the that it works under 2nd one. And I realized his statement is true too....actually you cannot conclude from the code, what is the real reason why it works like this.

All tips are scrambled. If the scramble is a 3 the turn is ignored as it should be. It doesn't 'skip' scrambling any tips. This is the same as your "second principle".

You obviously do not understand the code enough to discuss this topic correctly.
 
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