Is cubing mathmatical?

[The Bloody Talon]

Yes, those two examples, as well as the ones above can be interpreted mathematically (which I have already said in point #4 in my previous post), but what good, for example, does repeating an algorithm until the identity is reached help you make algorithms? Repeating that OLL alg twice to get another OLL alg is experimentation yet again.

you are assuming that I discovered by experimentation.

how come it become experimentation?
I studied the algorithm and discovered that if i set it up first or do it twice will make another new algorithm.

i studied an algorithm and its effect and found out that it do this and do that.
and by doing this. I could do that. or mirroring or using its anti will do this.

true example is my N perm.
i know which edge and corner pieces switch with J perm. So I think of a set up move to make it an N perm. And it is not experimentation. I think first before I tried it.
it is math.

i think things to you needs a ballpen and a paper or something where you can put your data to be considered as math, seriously.


btw, peace bro. we're cool right?

edit:
everything is math: http://cemela.math.arizona.edu/english/content/workingpapers/ELEMTMSJ_AERA_2007.pdf
lol. just kidding.

 

[tozies24]

Your argument is so ridiculous The Bloody Talon. There are so many different things that I could say about how your argument is lacking but I think that the other people on this thread have already taken care of that. But I will say that your trial and error statement is not mathematical at all.

Trial and Error is not strictly mathematical and I would not consider it to be a good base argument for why cubing is or isn't mathematical. Of course, there are situations in mathematics that have required trial and trying to figure out what to do with a certain expression. But trial and error is part of everyone's daily life; something as simple as choosing the correct path to take when driving somewhere, or considering what words and sentences to put into a essay.

Let's say that we were to argue that putting an essay together is mathematical, for an example of how ridiculous your argument is. Say that the essay is an argumentative essay and you have taken a side on side A (There are two sides to the problem). Now, by the use of logic and careful reasoning, you put together a solid discussion on why your point of view on the problem is right. But wait, isn't logic and careful reasoning used in mathematics? So writing an essay must be mathematics, too.

Moral of the story: Please don't try and think into things more than you have to especially if they are going to make people upset. Also, don't post quotes that you don't back up or understand completely.

Last example:

IMO, speedsolving doesn't involves math,
but discovering algorithms involves math.

Mathematics (from Greek μάθημα máthēma "knowledge, study, learning") is the study of quantity, space, structure, and change.
-wikipedia

Change, in a mathematical sense, is about the rate of change of things. Calculus is all about change. Derivatives and Integrals give us the tools to take a look at situations that would be hard to figure out without those concepts. Of course you could say that turning sides on the cube is change, but so is your hair growing and so is a law coming into effect from the government.

Have a nice day.

EDIT:There are going to be holes in someone's argument on the forums because we are just writing this from nowhere so I am sorry if I jumped around.

 

[dada222]

"trial and error". very important in mathematics
but if you discovered algorithm X by trial and error, you should study what it do.
If you don't, you couldn't use it again.

Simple, take a solved cube, apply the alg some number of times, then it will be solved again, the last state it was before it was solved is the one the alg was made for. Of course, it's pretty random but I assumed the people that first made algs on the Internet and before it did it that way, but I could be wrong.

 

[chris410]

Non-cubers think the cube is mathematical because of the apparent complexity to those who have no knowledge of the cube. To date, I have never used addition or division (two fundamental operations in mathematics) to solve a cube. Can mathematics be used to solve a cube yes, based off of group theory (and I will admit that I have not studied group theory but I have read over papers that talk about solving the cube using group theory).

Good link: http://www.ryanheise.com/cube/group_theory.html However, I would venture to say that most of us do not use this method to solve the cube.

To answer the question, in my opinion, the cube "can" be mathematical if you consider group theory. Do we use mathematics while solving...NO but we do use spacial intelligence.

 

[tozies24]

I think that considering cubing to be mathematical is just looking into something too much when it is just a puzzle. Obviously anything with some observable properties can be modeled by math, but those things are not needed to be modeled by math for us to understand them. We understand the cube and that's why we can solve it. We don't need to understand vector spaces, topology, and other higher mathematics to solve it. We don't even need addition and multiplication (which was stated earlier).

 

[xabu1]

hahahaha!
bwahahaha!

cool cupboards!
what is that? a puzzle cupboard?
does it involve much thinking to open it?!
LOL

you said that because a robot can solve a cube, it must be mathematical
by your logic there
if a robot can open a cupboard, cupboards are mathematical

 

[insane569]

the cube is mathematical if you think about its design and pieces and all the posibillities
when you solve you go from permutation # whatever and you get closer to the final solved state
if you use CFOP then eventually you get to the last 21(22 if you count it solved) permutations which can be found mathematically since there is only 21 last layer permutations if you keep orientation
there is only 57(58 if you count it solved)OLLs for the last layer. no more and no less. these can also be found mathematically since you cant get a parity.
on bigger cubes you can get parities which have a mathematical reason they exist
but if you think about just solving i wouldnt consider solving mathematical but there is a bit of thought process.
just my mind.

 

[The Bloody Talon]

Your argument is so ridiculous The Bloody Talon. There are so many different things that I could say about how your argument is lacking but I think that the other people on this thread have already taken care of that. But I will say that your trial and error statement is not mathematical at all.

Trial and Error is not strictly mathematical and I would not consider it to be a good base argument for why cubing is or isn't mathematical. Of course, there are situations in mathematics that have required trial and trying to figure out what to do with a certain expression. But trial and error is part of everyone's daily life; something as simple as choosing the correct path to take when driving somewhere, or considering what words and sentences to put into a essay.

Let's say that we were to argue that putting an essay together is mathematical, for an example of how ridiculous your argument is. Say that the essay is an argumentative essay and you have taken a side on side A (There are two sides to the problem). Now, by the use of logic and careful reasoning, you put together a solid discussion on why your point of view on the problem is right. But wait, isn't logic and careful reasoning used in mathematics? So writing an essay must be mathematics, too.

Moral of the story: Please don't try and think into things more than you have to especially if they are going to make people upset. Also, don't post quotes that you don't back up or understand completely.

Last example:



Change, in a mathematical sense, is about the rate of change of things. Calculus is all about change. Derivatives and Integrals give us the tools to take a look at situations that would be hard to figure out without those concepts. Of course you could say that turning sides on the cube is change, but so is your hair growing and so is a law coming into effect from the government.

Have a nice day.

EDIT:There are going to be holes in someone's argument on the forums because we are just writing this from nowhere so I am sorry if I jumped around.

Your argument is so ridiculous Tozies24.
I never said trial and error is strictly mathematical.
But trial and error is important in gathering data. In my previous examples, I collect data by trial and errors. I modify some moves to come up with another new data (the product form the data which i get from trial and errors).

tell me if this is math:
using a raw data to come up with a new product by modifying it is already a math.

Have a nice day to you too.
peace.

you said that because a robot can solve a cube, it must be mathematical
by your logic there
if a robot can open a cupboard, cupboards are mathematical

:fp
what data do you need to input to a robot to open a cupboard?
what data do you need to input to a robot to solve a rubik's cube?
is it logical to compare these two?

anyway, my example in robot is not an issue here anymore.

 

[Edward]

Cubing isn't math
We put math into cubing though

Is checkers mathematical? What about Go? Chess?
(hopefully those were proper examples. I don't really play checkers or chess often)

 

[insane569]

Cubing isn't math
We put math into cubing though

Is checkers mathematical? What about Go? Chess?
(hopefully those were proper examples. I don't really play checkers or chess often)

chess is somewhat mathematical
you gotta predict the oponents next move and every single way to counter it and every move he will make to counter that one along with the chances that he will make that move
you gotta think about the chances that he makes this move or that move and in chess there is alot of moves possible and counter moves

 

[Escher]

Cubing isn't math
We put math into cubing though

Is checkers mathematical? What about Go? Chess?
(hopefully those were proper examples. I don't really play checkers or chess often)

Game theory.

So is cubing a game?

 

[xabu1]

what data do you need to input to a robot to open a cupboard?
what data do you need to input to a robot to solve a rubik's cube?
is it logical to compare these two?

for a rubik's cube to be solved by a robot, it needs to find locations of colours, then it just applies algorithms that are coded in
for a cupboard to be opened by a robot, it needs to find locations of a handle, then it just applies stuff that is coded in

hmm... I think they are similar

 

[The Bloody Talon]

for a rubik's cube to be solved by a robot, it needs to find locations of colours, then it just applies algorithms that are coded in
for a cupboard to be opened by a robot, it needs to find locations of a handle, then it just applies stuff that is coded in

hmm... I think they are similar

so now, it is not simply opening a cupboard. but finding the handle of the cupboard and opening it?
do you have an idea with programming?

and why are you still making this an issue, all of us (except you) are convinced that a robot can solve a rubik's cube because of mathematics.
this is not an issue here anymore.

peace.

 

[AvGalen]

have a solved cube...
take out an edge.....
close your eyes......
rotate the edge until you have no idea about it's orientation anymore.....
put the edge back in the cube......
scramble the cube......
open your eyes......
determine if the cube is solvable without doing any turns
^^MATH

J-Perm = L' U R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R'
^^"no math"
J-Perm = Niklas + Sune = L' U R U' L U R' + R U R' U R U2 R' = L' U R U' L U R' R U R' U R U2 R' = L' U R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R'
^^MATH

A girl at worlds solved the cube while she was only 4 years old and had never even heard about math
A girl in India (Chennai) solved a cube blindfolded while she was only 7 years old and had never even heard about math (she actually solved all 3 of her attempts)
They solved with a system that has a lot of mathematical background, but didn't need that math to actually solve it

 

[The Bloody Talon]

have a solved cube...
take out an edge.....
close your eyes......
rotate the edge until you have no idea about it's orientation anymore.....
put the edge back in the cube......
scramble the cube......
open your eyes......
determine if the cube is solvable without doing any turns
^^MATH

J-Perm = L' U R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R'
^^"no math"
J-Perm = Niklas + Sune = L' U R U' L U R' + R U R' U R U2 R' = L' U R U' L U R' R U R' U R U2 R' = L' U R U' L U2 R' U R U2 R'
^^MATH

A girl at worlds solved the cube while she was only 4 years old and had never even heard about math
A girl in India (Chennai) solved a cube blindfolded while she was only 7 years old and had never even heard about math (she actually solved all 3 of her attempts)
They solved with a system that has a lot of mathematical background, but didn't need that math to actually solve it

very nice explanation
this is what I am trying to say.
and I can't explain it very well because I'm not good with english.

Your argument is so ridiculous The Bloody Talon. There are so many different things that I could say about how your argument is lacking but I think that the other people on this thread have already taken care of that.

Hahaha

 

[ZincK_NOVA]

have a solved cube...
take out an edge.....
close your eyes......
rotate the edge until you have no idea about it's orientation anymore.....
put the edge back in the cube......
scramble the cube......
open your eyes......
determine if the cube is solvable without doing any turns
^^MATH

um, math in the sense that one can tell the difference between odd and even numbers; I was under the impression that this discussion was more inclined to discussing how mathematics can be applied to a puzzle in order to reduce it's state to a specific single permutation, rather than "can you count?".
If we decide that because we're simply counting edge orientation, the cube involves maths, then surely every solver uses maths when describing the puzzle? (IE: 3x3x3).
I'm not arguing that this is why cubing involves maths, rather that this approach seems to misinterpet by what is meant when people suggest that you need mathematics to solve the puzzle.

 

[YrMyKnight]

Does cubing have anything to do with Maths and Science?

I was playing with my friends cube in class when maybe I impress my friends a little so the teacher came and ask me what was I doing.

I had no choice but to show here the cube which was scrambled that time. She said I couldnt solve it and even if i could it would be to slow.
I was kind of mad so i solve it for her and her jaws drop!

She didnt believe it at first but after a few solves she said I was a genius!
LMAO!

She asked me what I got for my maths which was A
And science which was B+
She asked me to keep up my good word and kept on praising me to other teachers :O
I became famous in my school :fp

 

[Andreaillest]

Nope.

 

[LeighzerCuber]

I would say it is mathematical to an extent due to the fact that in the back of your head you are keeping track of how many more edges you need to pair, f2l slots to fill, pieces to orient etc. However, when solving a particular puzzle you don't go," hmmmm, so if this piece is here 4-3=1 so I do these moves aaaand solved." which is what non-cubers are probably thinking (because they don't have a single clue) that you are thinking when you solve it. ( but not with that 1st grade math though obviously. )
So techinically both sides are a little right, but I think for the most part that you aren't doing "true" math during a solve.