Is cubing mathmatical?

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how I think when I do comms is basically this "A gets to B with proper orientation and C goes to A with proper orientation"

What is this "A" "B" "C" and "orientation" stuff you talk about? almost sounds like math to me...

With commutators I think in terms like "this solves this piece" , "this swaps these two" and twice "this undoes this" :)
 
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What is this "A" "B" "C" and "orientation" stuff you talk about? almost sounds like math to me...

With commutators I think in terms like "this solves this piece" , "this swaps these two" and twice "this undoes this" :)

it sound like math because thats where the idea come from

Edit:to avoid triple post

@stefan, it probably sound narrow because i have pretty basic math knowledge
 
I would say that typical speedsolving requires essentially no math, but as you start to try to understand the cube better and move into more complicated theory (including getting better at FMC or BLD), the amount of math increases. A good cube theorist will typically have a very strong intuitive grasp of the group theory that applies to twisty puzzles.
 
Yes. Cubing is mathematical because it involves thinking logically and solving problems. You don't actually calculate anything but it's not about that. Everyone thinks mathematically every day - whether they knew any math or not. For example choosing the fastest way to work or school is mathematics. Please read this and see for yourselves: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithm
 
I would say that typical speedsolving requires essentially no math, but as you start to try to understand the cube better and move into more complicated theory (including getting better at FMC or BLD), the amount of math increases.

I don't really agree with the bolded parts: you can have good understanding about the cube, FMC and BLD solving without knowing / relying on any math whatsoever.


A good cube theorist will typically have a very strong intuitive grasp of the group theory that applies to twisty puzzles.
If with 'cube theorist' you mean people like yourself, Lucas, Chris, Per, Cmwolla etc then I agree :)
 
If with 'cube theorist' you mean people like yourself, Lucas, Chris, Per, Cmwolla etc then I agree :)

They're all certainly theorists in the wider sense that they pose puzzle-theoretic questions and attempt to answer them, but not all of them use much that's actually theoretical, and I'm sure some don't know much group theory. To pick on Cmowla, he's much more of an experimentalist. Not that I have any problem with that in itself; doing often produces more useful things, and he's definitely done some cool stuff. But ad-hoc constructions and computations barely qualify as theory. More theory could help him become a more productive experimentalist, if only by pointing out provably fruitless paths of exploration....

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To clarify, almost any interesting exploration on the cube has to be more experimental than theoretical. I mean, the cube group is abstractly just a finite group whose structure can easily be written down explicitly; aside from its size, it's a relatively simple object. So it's to be expected that most mathematically natural questions about the abstract cube group are easy (e.g. order, commutator subgroup). The long-standing "theoretical" question of God's number was the explicit computation of some quantity related to this one Cayley graph, and relative to a set of generators that's pretty unnatural from a mathematical point of view (why include half turns?); the reason it was hard was because the thing is huge by the standard of today's computers, which meant that you had to be clever to make the computation feasible.

Most of the difficulty in cube theory comes from the fact that many questions we consider are only natural for the specific realization of the abstract cube group as a Rubik's Cube, and more specifically as a Rubik's Cube solved by a speedcuber. This means that many questions that are interesting for us are very unnatural mathematically. For example, one natural question for a speedcuber is whether it's possible to execute every PLL once and get back to the solved state. On the cube group, the subgroup P of elements that permute the last layer while preserving orientation is still a mathematically decent object (though you're already fixing a particular realization of the cube group rather than looking at it abstractly). But identifying different permutations as a single PLL by factoring out rotations and AUFs means (as you can convince yourself) looking not at P but at R\P/R, where R is subgroup of U turns. If you treat the cube as an abstract group, there's no good mathematical reason to look at these double cosets; P/R already fails to be a group, and there's no reason to expect much structure in R\P/R under the induced operation. Theoretical considerations may still somehow lead to a nice solution (more likely negative, if anything), but precisely because this question is mathematically unnatural, it's hard to solve it theoretically...which means we'll probably have to just compute. On the other hand, theoretical considerations may help simplify computation and make it feasible.

To summarize, many interesting problems for speedcubers are hard and more computational than theoretical because they're mathematically unnatural. There isn't much theory to know for cubing, say some group theory (say enough to fully understand the above) and some standard counting tools, and otherwise large computations will often be necessary. But knowing this much theory will help you organize and effectively carry out these computations. In other words, cube theorists are by nature be more experimentalist than theorist, but the best experimentalists are those well-versed in theory.

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In response to the thread, I think the key point is the difference between an abstract mathematical concept/object and its various realizations. Cubing (for 3x3) deals with one particular realization of one group that, abstractly, is mathematically relatively uninteresting. Rather, it is this realization and all its consequences (including consequences for cube theory described above) that make cubing interesting.
 
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Why should cubing be math?
Are there numbers on each sticker which build an equation system?

And i don't know why commutators should be math, for me commutators are just a logical way to solve the cube.
And logic≉math.
 
Why should cubing be math?
Are there numbers on each sticker which build an equation system?

And i don't know why commutators should be math, for me commutators are just a logical way to solve the cube.
And logic≉math.

Wait, are you suggesting that math is just about numbers and equation systems?

can be and should be are different things

Kirjava and Stefan, as fun as it is to watch you two shoot down logical fallacies in superficial non-arguments, I'm actually hoping to get some input from prominent puzzle theorists. Private forum?
 
I'm actually hoping to get some input from prominent puzzle theorists.

Honestly, I don't consider myself that much of a puzzle theorist.

My knowledge of group theory specifically is severely lacking. I've never really needed it on my adventures and therefore never bothered to educate myself on the subject. Any maths that I'm required to do for cubing activities is almost always trivial.

Out of interest, what do you class as 'exploration'?
 
macky said:
I'm actually hoping to get some input from prominent puzzle theorists.
Honestly, I don't consider myself that much of a puzzle theorist.
Yes, I was talking about the likes of Kociemba and Rokicki. =)

Out of interest, what do you class as 'exploration'?
Anything you might call cube/speedcubing theory/development, including things as non-mathematical as finding algorithms using ACube and computing case counts for method variants.
 
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sheldon cooper: 'first of all we must ask ourselves "what is physics"'

ok, not sure if anyone else watches that show lol.

so, to me in a way cubing is like math
im sure we've all stumbled upon (or get taught) a way of solving pieces in a more optimized solution, after learning we understand how some steps are not needed, or "hey, it's the same thing".

in math, if you're given the fraction 2x/8x, you know it's equal to 1x/4x.

thats if you say math is about problem solving (in the easiest way)
..then cubing can be thought of as also learning to solve in the easiest way

secondly, math has a bunch of formulas, we remember as text (e.g. a2+ b2 = c2)
us in cubing also have to remember things; algorithms, which we remember in muscle memory

third, there's terms (jargon)
in math, perpendicular, quadratic, exterior angles lol
in cubing, cfop, f2l, ollcp, petrus, zeroing (jokes)
these things, no one would know unless they've studied the subject

but.. if you're like me and basically cube all the time then..
math is not like cubing because it's boring lol
 
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secondly, math has a bunch of formulas, we remember as text (e.g. a2+ b2 = c2)
us in cubing also have to remember things, algorithms, which we remember in muscle memory
People memorize formulas in text?
I've always done so with auditory signals "asq basq is casq" but maybe that's just me.

Either way, I hope people seldom memorize algorithms in text, even at the very start.


I guess you could show some comparison of how you use 'muscle memory' both in cubing and performing mathematical operations, but you do the same with walking. Is math walking? Is walking cubing? No, that's stretching it at this point. We need to be more specific.
 
Well, in my opinion, everything in life has a certain degree of mathematics involved even to the slightest degree(not sure if i spelt slightest right D:)

As an example, When you go to eat a pie and you are watching your weight, 2000 calories a day on average you must subtract the amount of calories from each portion, if the pie is 500 calories in total, you aren't going to eat the whole pie, you'are going to eat a portion, normally using a fraction to deduct everything and to calculate the amount of calories.

Another example would be the rubiks cube, there are 43,252,003,274,489,856,000 possible combinations, but as they say only one of them is the correct solution, but you must go through multiple multiple stages of the cube, eliminating more and more possible combinations on your way to that single possibility. Wich is why the further you get into solving it, the less moves it takes.

But that is just my opinion and i have enjoyed overseeing this topic.
 
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