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Solving 4x4 on your own

Zane_C

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Hey,
I have a 4x4x4 cube and haven't been spending much time on it. I haven't bothered to learn a method and I play around with it every now and then. So far I can intuitively solve the first 3 layers, all corners, but havn't quite figured out how to orient and/or permute individual last layer edges.
The closest I've got to it being solved was all but 2 pieces solved, they were oriented correctly but needed to switch places.

I was wondering who here managed to solve the 4x4 all by themselves?
If so, how long did it take you?
And how fast can you solve it now? (perhaps even with your own method)
 
What you have is a parity. And there's nothing you can do without an algorithm (unless, of course, you could fix it intuitively, which is close to impossible to do). If you wanna solve it on your own, I would rescramble it and hope for the best that you don't get a parity case.
 
(unless, of course, you could fix it intuitively, which is close to impossible to do)

What you are calling impossible is what I do with every puzzle I solve on my own "intuitively" (for example the parity of square-1). It just having knowledge, understanding some "secrets" of twisty puzzles.

I would use my combination of a parity fix move + commutators to solve the 4x4

I remember that when I first solved 4x4 on my own I did the reduction about 4 times (messed up a bit the centers) until I got no parities; it took me about 30 minutes. But now I would have done it as I said above.
 
(unless, of course, you could fix it intuitively, which is close to impossible to do)

What you are calling impossible is what I do with every puzzle I solve on my own "intuitively" (for example the parity of square-1). It just having knowledge, understanding some "secrets" of twisty puzzles.

I never said it was impossible. I know that for a beginner it would be VERY difficult to successfully fix a parity case nusing pure knowledge of a cube. I couldn't even do it myself with my knowledge of cubes. I know there are people like you who are able to apply a more advanced knowledge to allow them to get past any challenge, so please don't take my message that way. You jumped to conclusions way too quickly there.
 
(unless, of course, you could fix it intuitively, which is close to impossible to do)

What you are calling impossible is what I do with every puzzle I solve on my own "intuitively" (for example the parity of square-1). It just having knowledge, understanding some "secrets" of twisty puzzles.

I never said it was impossible. I know that for a beginner it would be VERY difficult to successfully fix a parity case nusing pure knowledge of a cube. I couldn't even do it myself with my knowledge of cubes. I know there are people like you who are able to apply a more advanced knowledge to allow them to get past any challenge, so please don't take my message that way. You jumped to conclusions way too quickly there.

Sorry, I didn't want to mean that... I meant that it was not SO hard. Perhaps I can do it easily because I know about cycles and commutators because of learning blindfolded.
 
If you understand what parity is, then it is quite easy to solve. Having to switch two wing edges means that the wing edges are in an odd permutation. What this means is that it requires an odd number of inner slice quarter turns to place them into an even permutation (and thus, easily solvable with almost any intuitive or regular speedsolve method). The "difficult" part is that at this point in your solve your center pieces are usually completely solved. So I propose to you a challenge that will fix the parity of the wing permutation to be even (and thus you won't have any strange problems when trying to solve them).

Can you scramble and resolve centers using an odd number of inner slice quarter turns? It's ok if this messes up some other things on the cube, as long as centers end up solved again.

Hint: It only takes 9 overall turns to do this

Chris
 
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Hey,
I have a 4x4x4 cube and haven't been spending much time on it. I haven't bothered to learn a method and I play around with it every now and then. So far I can intuitively solve the first 3 layers, all corners, but havn't quite figured out how to orient and/or permute individual last layer edges.
The closest I've got to it being solved was all but 2 pieces solved, they were oriented correctly but needed to switch places.

I was wondering who here managed to solve the 4x4 all by themselves?
If so, how long did it take you?
And how fast can you solve it now? (perhaps even with your own method)
Great that you actually tried to solve this all on your own. It is called a PUZZLE for a reason. Getting to all but 2 pieces solved is very impressive. You have solved all, but the hardest sub-puzzle of any sized cube (parity)
This parity case occurs 50% of the time. There is another one that might give you problems as well that also occurs 50% of the time. All this means that you could just rescramble and hope for the best (at least 25% of the time this will work!). Chris tip about the odd number of quarter-turn-slice-turns is indeed the missing link.
I tried to solve 4x4x4 on my own using layer by layer about 4 years ago and could also do it untill the parities. I first did the rescramble-and-hope-for-the-best thing.
Then I decided to first do centers layer by layer, then create "big edges" and then solve layer-by-layer (found out this is Pochmann-centers and reduction later). This still gave me problems with the last edges, but eventually I found a way to solve this problem
Do a D-move, then restore the middle 2 layer ceners with (dR2d')(u'R2u) (d2B2d2)(u2B2u2) (dF2d')(u'F2u)
I never figured out how to do OLL-Parity myself which is a really good thing because while looking for that on the internet I discovered the whole speedcubing community. It wasn't untill years later that I understood what parity actually is.

Google, "4x4 Redux method." I don't know of people solving it like this. It is very different to a 3x3, but you end up solving it as a 3x3.
Please don't tell people that ask for experiences with a puzzle-method to look up a speedsolving method.

...Sorry, I didn't want to mean that... I meant that it was not SO hard. Perhaps I can do it easily because I know about cycles and commutators because of learning blindfolded.
Yes, knowing about blindfolded (cycles+setupmoves) is bascially the key to solving every puzzle. If you can find a couple of sequences that only effect a couple of pieces on the puzzle solving it becomes trivial
 
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If you understand what parity is, then it is quite easy to solve. Having to switch two wing edges means that the wing edges are in an odd permutation. What this means is that it requires an odd number of inner slice quarter turns to place them into an even permutation (and thus, easily solvable with almost any intuitive or regular speedsolve method). The "difficult" part is that at this point in your solve your center pieces are usually completely solved. So I propose to you a challenge that will fix the parity of the wing permutation to be even (and thus you won't have any strange problems when trying to solve them).

Can you scramble and resolve centers using an odd number of inner slice quarter turns? It's ok if this messes up some other things on the cube, as long as centers end up solved again.

Hint: It only takes 9 overall turns to do this

Chris

I think that would be the easier intuitive way to fix the parity and rebuild centers. And I just needed to do one edges pairing after that.
 
If you understand what parity is, then it is quite easy to solve. Having to switch two wing edges means that the wing edges are in an odd permutation. What this means is that it requires an odd number of inner slice quarter turns to place them into an even permutation (and thus, easily solvable with almost any intuitive or regular speedsolve method). The "difficult" part is that at this point in your solve your center pieces are usually completely solved. So I propose to you a challenge that will fix the parity of the wing permutation to be even (and thus you won't have any strange problems when trying to solve them).

Can you scramble and resolve centers using an odd number of inner slice quarter turns? It's ok if this messes up some other things on the cube, as long as centers end up solved again.

Hint: It only takes 9 overall turns to do this

Chris

Despite quite a thorough search, I haven't been able to fine a proper explanation for OLL parity. As far as I can see (by looking at the cube), OLL parity is when only two dedges are swapped. The reason this maifests its self as an orientation problem is that when a pair of dedges are swapped in place, then they must also be flipped too because the internal mechanics of the pieces wouldn't allow otherwise.

My question is: How can only two dedges be swapped, and nothing else. Its counter to my intuition on how twisty puzzles operate. Does OLL parity possibly mean that two centre pieces are also swapped? If anyone could shed light on this I'd be very interested. I'd like to be able to solve OLL parity intuitively, but I've no idea how to at the moment :o
 
Well, if you do r, you have done an odd permutation off edges (a 4-cycle), but an even permutation of centers (2 4-cycles). That means that edge parity is not related to the center parity. The corner parity, however, *is* related to the center parity; if you do R, you have done an even permutation of edges (2 4-cycles), an odd permutation off corners (a 4-cycle) and an odd permutation of edges (a 4-cycle). That's why the OLL parity can be pure (on a 4x4).
 
Well, if you do r, you have done an odd permutation off edges (a 4-cycle), but an even permutation of centers (2 4-cycles). That means that edge parity is not related to the center parity. The corner parity, however, *is* related to the center parity; if you do R, you have done an even permutation of edges (2 4-cycles), an odd permutation off corners (a 4-cycle) and an odd permutation of edges (a 4-cycle). That's why the OLL parity can be pure (on a 4x4).

Ah right, that makes sense. I checked the centres and found that OLL parity indeed doesn't affect them. So by what you were saying, does that mean any scramble + solve that involves an odd number of outer-layer turns (QTM) will result in OLL parity?
 
To expand on what Maarten said I have included a proof about the 4x4x4 cube below. Also, Maarten :fp I did not see your post before I started typing my own, so I apologize for the repeat parts.

Despite quite a thorough search, I haven't been able to fine a proper explanation for OLL parity. As far as I can see (by looking at the cube), OLL parity is when only two dedges are swapped. The reason this maifests its self as an orientation problem is that when a pair of dedges are swapped in place, then they must also be flipped too because the internal mechanics of the pieces wouldn't allow otherwise.

Mostly correct. "Parity" is the state of a permutation of pieces, however we misuse this term to describe the state when the parity is odd (i.e. the permutation is in an odd permutation state). The proper term we should use is "wings have odd parity" or something like this. However, we incorrectly say "wings have parity", or "the cube has parity". In fact, each group of pieces on the cube always have parity, because pieces are always in either an even or odd permutation.

Your assertion that "odd parity" in the wings asserts itself as two wings swapped is the only part I truly, and completely, disagree with. I'll give you another example of odd parity. From a solved cube do the turn r. You cube now has OLL parity, by the true definition of what OLL parity is. So as not to be a complete stickler for terminology, I will add to your definition of OLL parity the additional: "When the wing edges are in an odd parity state when the cube is being solved with the reduction method, and centers are solved and edge groups are built, then this manifests itself as an impossible edge orientation case, considering the rules of a 3x3x3 cube."

My question is: How can only two dedges be swapped, and nothing else. Its counter to my intuition on how twisty puzzles operate. Does OLL parity possibly mean that two centre pieces are also swapped? If anyone could shed light on this I'd be very interested. I'd like to be able to solve OLL parity intuitively, but I've no idea how to at the moment :o

This is my favorite question in cubing theory, and it's the reason why I love the 4x4x4 more than any other n x n x n cube. Let's for a second not only consider the 4x4x4 cube, but the 4x4x4 supercube. On the 4x4x4 supercube it is indeed possible to switch any two wing edges, and affect no other part of the cube at all! Not only is that true, but the 4x4x4 supercube is the only n x n x n supercube where you can swap any two wing edges in the same orbit without affecting any other piece on the cube. For all other cube sizes that have edge pieces, swapping only two of those edges must have an effect on some other pieces of the cube!

Here is the proof that it is possible to swap two wings on a 4x4x4 and not affect any other pieces on the cube:
When turning an inner layer of a 4x4x4 supercube by one quarter turn you are affecting four wing edges, and you are 4-cycling them (toggling the permutation parity, and yes I mean parity in the correct sense of the word here). You are also creating two 4-cycles of centers that are in the same orbit. This net effect is an even permutation, so the parity of the centers remains the same. From here you can use commutators and 3 cycles to return all the centers to their correct location (all even parity positions are achievable using 3 cycles) and you can do 1 commutator on the wing edges to solve 2 of the now unsolved pieces back to their original location. This leaves 2 wing edges swapped, and everything else in its original location.

Proof for why this does not work on any other cube size:
When turning an inner layer slice by one quarter turn on a cube larger than 4x4x4 there are now two types of center pieces. There are the "x" centers, and the "oblique centers" as I call them (you can rename them how you like, but I define my terms in the next sentence). Each inner slice contains exactly 8 "x-centers" from the same orbit, and only from one orbit of "x-centers". Each inner slice contains exactly 4, and no more, "oblique centers" from the same orbit, for 1 or more different orbits. I could provide you with the formula for how many orbits exactly, but I just want you to get the basic idea.

Here's how this affects the pieces when doing a single quarter turn of an inner layer. When turning the inner layer the wing edges are 4-cycled (toggling the parity). The "x-center" orbit that is affected has had two 4-cycles of pieces created which is a net even permutation. Parity of this orbit is not affected. Now, all the remaining center pieces on this slice are "oblique" centers, and each orbit contained on this slice has only 4 of its pieces on that slice. By doing the inner slice quarter turn you create a 4-cycle of pieces in every single one of these orbits, thus toggling the parity of the permutation in every single one of those orbits.

Therefore the 4x4x4 supercube is the only supercube where the parity of the wing edge permutation is completely independent of the parity of all other orbits on the cube.

Hope this helps, and yes I agree that the 4x4x4 is the most beautiful cube from a theory standpoint for exactly this same reason.

Chris
 
No, any scramble + solve that involves and odd number of inner-layer turns (QTM) will result in OLL parity.


This is actually the idea behind my method for always avoiding the OLL parity case (and yes I am back to misusing that term colloquially haha). If you count the cycles of the wings during inspection in a BLD sense you can determine if the cube has odd or even wing edge parity. You then solve in such a manner as to ensure even wing parity, thus avoiding OLL parity.

However, I found that it is incredibly difficult to do this during the inspection time. After much practice I am down to maybe 25 seconds record for a single solve. However, there is a shorter way to do this than counting cycles of the 24 pieces, and more like counting the 12 cycles of a 3x3x3. I can explain this method if anyone is interested. Based on how fast the truly world class BLD people are at memorzing an entire 3x3x3, perhaps it is not so far fetched to count cycles using my shortcut pseudo-3x3x3 edge method to count cycles on a 4x4x4 and always avoid OLL parity.

Chris
 
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To expand on what Maarten said I have included a proof about the 4x4x4 cube below. Also, Maarten :fp I did not see your post before I started typing my own, so I apologize for the repeat parts.

Despite quite a thorough search, I haven't been able to fine a proper explanation for OLL parity. As far as I can see (by looking at the cube), OLL parity is when only two dedges are swapped. The reason this maifests its self as an orientation problem is that when a pair of dedges are swapped in place, then they must also be flipped too because the internal mechanics of the pieces wouldn't allow otherwise.

Mostly correct. "Parity" is the state of a permutation of pieces, however we misuse this term to describe the state when the parity is odd (i.e. the permutation is in an odd permutation state). The proper term we should use is "wings have odd parity" or something like this. However, we incorrectly say "wings have parity", or "the cube has parity". In fact, each group of pieces on the cube always have parity, because pieces are always in either an even or odd permutation.

Your assertion that "odd parity" in the wings asserts itself as two wings swapped is the only part I truly, and completely, disagree with. I'll give you another example of odd parity. From a solved cube do the turn r. You cube now has OLL parity, by the true definition of what OLL parity is. So as not to be a complete stickler for terminology, I will add to your definition of OLL parity the additional: "When the wing edges are in an odd parity state when the cube is being solved with the reduction method, and centers are solved and edge groups are built, then this manifests itself as an impossible edge orientation case, considering the rules of a 3x3x3 cube."

My question is: How can only two dedges be swapped, and nothing else. Its counter to my intuition on how twisty puzzles operate. Does OLL parity possibly mean that two centre pieces are also swapped? If anyone could shed light on this I'd be very interested. I'd like to be able to solve OLL parity intuitively, but I've no idea how to at the moment :o

This is my favorite question in cubing theory, and it's the reason why I love the 4x4x4 more than any other n x n x n cube. Let's for a second not only consider the 4x4x4 cube, but the 4x4x4 supercube. On the 4x4x4 supercube it is indeed possible to switch any two wing edges, and affect no other part of the cube at all! Not only is that true, but the 4x4x4 supercube is the only n x n x n supercube where you can swap any two wing edges in the same orbit without affecting any other piece on the cube. For all other cube sizes that have edge pieces, swapping only two of those edges must have an effect on some other pieces of the cube!

Here is the proof that it is possible to swap two wings on a 4x4x4 and not affect any other pieces on the cube:
When turning an inner layer of a 4x4x4 supercube by one quarter turn you are affecting four wing edges, and you are 4-cycling them (toggling the permutation parity, and yes I mean parity in the correct sense of the word here). You are also creating two 4-cycles of centers that are in the same orbit. This net effect is an even permutation, so the parity of the centers remains the same. From here you can use commutators and 3 cycles to return all the centers to their correct location (all even parity positions are achievable using 3 cycles) and you can do 1 commutator on the wing edges to solve 2 of the now unsolved pieces back to their original location. This leaves 2 wing edges swapped, and everything else in its original location.

Proof for why this does not work on any other cube size:
When turning an inner layer slice by one quarter turn on a cube larger than 4x4x4 there are now two types of center pieces. There are the "x" centers, and the "oblique centers" as I call them (you can rename them how you like, but I define my terms in the next sentence). Each inner slice contains exactly 8 "x-centers" from the same orbit, and only from one orbit of "x-centers". Each inner slice contains exactly 4, and no more, "oblique centers" from the same orbit, for 1 or more different orbits. I could provide you with the formula for how many orbits exactly, but I just want you to get the basic idea.

Here's how this affects the pieces when doing a single quarter turn of an inner layer. When turning the inner layer the wing edges are 4-cycled (toggling the parity). The "x-center" orbit that is affected has had two 4-cycles of pieces created which is a net even permutation. Parity of this orbit is not affected. Now, all the remaining center pieces on this slice are "oblique" centers, and each orbit contained on this slice has only 4 of its pieces on that slice. By doing the inner slice quarter turn you create a 4-cycle of pieces in every single one of these orbits, thus toggling the parity of the permutation in every single one of those orbits.

Therefore the 4x4x4 supercube is the only supercube where the parity of the wing edge permutation is completely independent of the parity of all other orbits on the cube.

Hope this helps, and yes I agree that the 4x4x4 is the most beautiful cube from a theory standpoint for exactly this same reason.

Chris
#

Chris, you have really shed a lot more light on this, many thanks for the post! I'm reading this at a Halloween party, and I've had too many to really take in the stuff about permutation of the centre pieces (I'll have another read when i'm sober).

One further question, when you say this doesn't apply to larger dimensions of cube, are you also including the 6x6? My understanding was that the inner-slice edges of a 6x6 behave in the same way as those of a 4x4..

Thanks again for the explanation, you have a gift for teaching ;)
 
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