9x9?

[trying-to-speedcube...]

Look, if there weren't any knock-offs on the market, I would wait for V-cubes. That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 0 dollars for the Chinese.

If there are knock-offs and Verdes puts the V-9 on the market say a year later, I would buy both, just because I want to get a 9x9 as fast as possible.
That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 80 dollars for the Chinese.

Verdes isn't losing money, the Chinese are winning money. It doesn't harm anyone, except me, because I lost 160 dollars

 

[Paul Wagner]

It's an illegal chinese knockoff
If you buy it, you support criminals
Also, I have my doubts as to the quality

lol...why are they "criminals" again...?
You guys support Verdes too much.

Just shut up now and we won't completely destroy you.

lol, wonderful. I'm just saying that it doesn't really matter if people buy those chinese knock offs or not. Verdes will still make money

how will he make money when people are buying the knock-off 9x9 and not his????

Knockoffs are really hard to get your hands on so it wouldn't even be worth it.

 

[TomZ]

Let me explain how this works:

Verdes made a massive investment. He purchased patents in a lot of countries. A patent can cost up to $10.000. Obviously when you purchase more than one the price goes down as you can recycle the first patent, but still it's going to cost you a lot on attorney fees.

Next, Verdes hired a company to make the dies for making V-Cubes. They made him a set of dies, which set him back $10.000 (that's on the cheap side). Using these dies, Verdes made a couple of prototypes. He reviewed these prototypes, and then made improvements to the design. He then had another set of dies made and continued this reviewing process until he had found the best formula possible. By this time, he has probably spent around $120.000.

Now, he hasn't earned anything yet. He has just spent god knows how much money on making the tooling for producing puzzles we all want without knowing if the market will be big enough for him to make back his investment. The speedcubing market isn't big enough, and what non-speedcubers would want a 7x7?

Next, he has to use these molds to produce 10.000 cubes he might never sell and also has to market them. He uses the best plastic available (even better than the kind used in Rubik's Cubes) and great quality stickers. Another fifty grand down the drain.

So as you can see, Verdes took a big financial guess to please the Speedcubing community. I don't believe he's made back all his money yet. He's putting his money on the line to please us.

Now, in comes some Chinese company. They copy his design, get a set of dies made using child labor and don't review anything (the corner neck could really use being a bit beefier). Then they use low quality plastic (just look at the color) to make the low quality product and sell it, a bit cheaper, but still they make five times as much money per sold product than Verdes.

If Verdes hadn't taken the plunge of patenting, producing and marketing his V-cubes, we wouldn't have had any. If they hadn't been a success, the Chinese companies would never have cared about copying them. If we buy these F9's (fake-9's) that could very well cause Verdes, without whom we would never have had any cubes >5x5x5, to end up with a very, very large debt.

Right now, Verdes has to make another investment. He will have to hire Chinese lawyers, track down the KO factory, file a lawsuit and pray the corrupt Chinese government rule in his favor. A process that might take years, a time frame in which Verdes might very well go bankrupt.

Verdes has spent thousands of dollars to give us what we wanted: higher order cubes. I think we should support him and refrain from giving these Criminals any support (which includes buying one if you already have the original) as our thank-you for the immense amount of money he spent to please us.

Buying something because you have bought or will buy the original doesn't make things right. If you buy anything from these Criminals, they'll receive a signal that they should continue doing what they're doing and also the means to do so. Be grateful to Verdes! If it weren't for him, we wouldn't have had anything.

 

[blade740]

Verdes isn't losing money, the Chinese are winning money. It doesn't harm anyone, except me, because I lost 160 dollars

Every 80 dollars you give to a knockoff producer is helping keep a thief in business.

 

[Ethan Rosen]

Look, if there weren't any knock-offs on the market, I would wait for V-cubes. That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 0 dollars for the Chinese.

If there are knock-offs and Verdes puts the V-9 on the market say a year later, I would buy both, just because I want to get a 9x9 as fast as possible.
That's 80 dollars for Verdes, 80 dollars for the Chinese.

Verdes isn't losing money, the Chinese are winning money. It doesn't harm anyone, except me, because I lost 160 dollars

Is it so f***ing hard to think more than 5 minutes ahead?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patents#Rationale

 

[Me Myself & Pi]

Whoa! I heard Izovire, on YouTube, talk about this, but I didn't think it would be true! That is crazy! But if it does become available, I encourage everyone NOT to buy it. The company would be making money off of Verdes's invention, without giving a dime to him!

I tried searching the website on the pictures, http://bbs.mf8.com.cn/. (I'm using http://babelfish.yahoo.com/ to translate). It's a forum site, so it's rather big. If anyone else what's to look at it, go ahead.

If it is my mom is going to China maybe this summer. If she does I'll try to get her to get a hold of one.
But did they skip 8x8 because it's an even cube? Can someone explain?

The even layered cubes have to made from the odd layered ones. In the V-Cube 6, there is a bunch of inner pieces. The V-Cube 7 has those same inner pieces, except they stick out as regular pieces. But it makes it harder to make an even layered cube because you need to keep the inner layer of the cube in alignment, since there's no way to grip it.


Oh, also, the TwistyPuzzles forum is back up.

 

[qqwref]

TomZ, you make it sound like if we do *nothing* Verdes will immediately go out of business. I don't have the money to buy thousands of V-7s and I suspect not many people here do either. Besides, Verdes has said several times that he doesn't want our financial help. Your negativity is annoying and unhelpful.

As a perfectionist myself, I really understand Verdes's tendency to want to perfect his cubes before releasing them to the public, but this would not be a good time to do that... at the moment releasing a V-9 would be a really good decision even if it is low-quality compared to the other V-cubes. The quality will increase later on and those of us who care about bigcubing won't have to deal with stupid moral issues.

 

[royzabeast]

Not to sound ignorant here, but shouldn't there be some sort of international patent system going around? Wouldn't that be a nice relief for inventors that have to pay for patents in many countries, and making it harder to have business stolen from them?

 

[Ton]

Now, in comes some Chinese company. They copy his design, get a set of dies made using child labor and don't review anything make the low quality product and sell it, a bit cheaper,
corrupt Chinese government rule in his favor. A process that might take years, a time frame in which Verdes might very well go bankrupt.

Criminals any support (which includes buying one if you already have the original)

My sympathy goes to Mr Verdes, but you make very bold accusations, without proof or knowing the facts

What I understand is according to Chinese law they are legal. (although we know there are copies)

Most of the Chinese puzzles (DIY etc) are now high quality products, you can not just assume it is of low quality.

About child labor, I doubt it in this case. I Believe it is a know firm to Mr Meffert.

Chinese government, well a bold statement, I would say China is not an open country. The fact that a firm makes a copy -our opinion- has nothing to do with the Chinese government, I would suspect the Chinese patent office or a spy at the factory of Mr Verdes. But I can not proof anything, so even this suspicion is not correct as statement

From your statement I assume you where angry, so I understand, I am very worried for Mr Verdes future to

 

[Ethan Rosen]

Not to sound ignorant here, but shouldn't there be some sort of international patent system going around? Wouldn't that be a nice relief for inventors that have to pay for patents in many countries, and making it harder to have business stolen from them?

There is, but many countries choose not to honor them. International Patents are kind of like UN resolutions, they pretty much just urge countries to back them, but it is ultimately up to the country to do what it pleases.

 

[DcF1337]

Why is it that no one complains about JSK clones, or copies of original cubes, but make such a big deal out of this 9x9?

I mean, yeah, I understand, it's stealing and all, but Verdes has yet to release the 9x9. So if a Chinese company decides to copy Verdes' 9x9 design and make their own 9x9, isn't it perfectly normal for people to buy them?

I'm not blaming Verdes for not releasing their 9x9, I'm just saying that this is inevitable. We can tell everyone not to buy them but people will anyway. There are collectors out there who will buy them, regardless of ethics and whatnot. They have it, you buy it. Isn't that how the business world works?

I'm not necessarily defending the thieves though. I personally wouldn't mind waiting a few years for the real deal to come out. But if they don't... well, maybe the Chinese copies are the next best thing.

 

[rahulkadukar]

I would buy both. However Verdes should release it ASAP

 

[rachmaninovian]

personally, I would get it simply because it's the only 9x9x9 out in the market.
Since the 6by and 7by knockoffs came AFTER the real v-cubes, i didn't bother to spend my money on them because I know they are of inferior quality and stuff.
and of course i want to be the first to try out how ridiculous my silliie commutator method can get.

 

[TomZ]

"TomZ, you make it sound like if we do *nothing* Verdes will immediately go out of business. I don't have the money to buy thousands of V-7s and I suspect not many people here do either. Besides, Verdes has said several times that he doesn't want our financial help. Your negativity is annoying and unhelpful."

I guess that's right. My post is a bit over the top but it makes for good essay-test practice. Though I'm just talking about moral support. I never suggested anything about buying 100 7x7's or anything of the sort.

"What I understand is according to Chinese law they are legal. (although we know there are copies)"
What if murder was legal in China? What if China had no laws at all? (PS: It is somewhat a grey area in China, patent laws aren't as strict in China as they are over here. Though I heard the Chinese 'government' is about to pass or has passed stricter patent laws.)
Here's a theory: I think whoever made this cube IS scared of the patent laws. As you can see, they added a little bump near where the corner neck meets the quarter sphere. There's no reason to do this except for trying to avoid patent issues.

"Most of the Chinese puzzles (DIY etc) are now high quality products, you can not just assume it is of low quality"
Just look at those pictures. It looks like I can snap the corner neck using only two fingers. 3x3 DIY's are also fairly simple things to produce. The V-Cubes mechanism on the other hand, not so much. It really appears to be nightmare to tool.

"About child labor, I doubt it in this case. I Believe it is a know firm to Mr Meffert. "
Yes, that was a bit of a bold statement as I don't know anything regarding that, but there is a chance they're using dirty tricks of that kind.

There is a European patent system.

 

[CuberDude]

It looks pretty dirty..

 

[luke1984]

I find it hard to imagine Mr. Verdes doesn't know about this. It would be a wise move for him to release some new cubes himself. I know I'd rather buy a real V-Cube than this one.

I think I lot of people would consider buying this one if the real V-9 doesn't come out. It would be the only 9x9x9 on the market.

I would also like to add: breaking copyright law isn't wrong because the government says so. The government is not some absolute moral authority. I have some moral objections to this but they have NOTHING to do with (international) copyright laws. Common sense dictates my morals NOT any kind of government or law.
And if your morals are dictated by law, I feel for you...

 

[Ton]

"
What if murder was legal in China? What if China had no laws at all? (PS: It is somewhat a grey area in China, patent laws aren't as strict in China as they are over here. Though I heard the Chinese 'government' is about to pass or has passed stricter patent laws.)
Here's a theory: I think whoever made this cube IS scared of the patent laws. As you can see, they added a little bump near where the corner neck meets the quarter sphere. There's no reason to do this except for trying to avoid patent issues.

"Most of the Chinese puzzles (DIY etc) are now high quality products, you can not just assume it is of low quality"
Just look at those pictures. It looks like I can snap the corner neck using only two fingers. 3x3 DIY's are also fairly simple things to produce. The V-Cubes mechanism on the other hand, not so much. It really appears to be nightmare to tool.

"About child labor, I doubt it in this case. I Believe it is a know firm to Mr Meffert. "
Yes, that was a bit of a bold statement as I don't know anything regarding that, but there is a chance they're using dirty tricks of that kind.

There is a European patent system.

First this 9x9 is probably a prototype, second I think the firm has legal claims that are sound in China.
Most likely this is one of the firms that make other quality puzzle e.g. for Mr Mefferts. Accusations about them using dirty trick or using child labor , I believe is very wrong

The fact that there is a legal copy/improved? patent- exist is the problem. That we all agree is very wrong. We can not accuse the factory who make the 9x9 without any proof.

We can however disapprove to the one who filled the patent.

 

[panyan]

depending on how long verdes waits to release the real 9x9, i may take an interest in this - against all my moral decency

 

[d4m4s74]

I give verdes till christmas to start making the V9 (as in having made a prototype or atleast proved they are working on it), after that I'll start researching how to get the F9

 

[Mike Hughey]

Not sure if want.

I know I will definitely buy an official V-cube 9 when they come out; that's not at all in question. However, if the Chinese one comes on the market first, buying one or not will be a tough choice, because I definitely do want to be one of the first people to have a 9x9 and start getting decent times with it. I really hope Verdes puts out a 9x9 soon, because that would make the choice a lot easier (in that case it'd be "buy a V-9 only", of course).

I feel the same way (except I want to be one of the first to solve it BLD). If I decided to buy the Chinese one, I would vow to buy a V-9 and destroy the Chinese one as soon as Verdes put one out. I would destroy the Chinese one rather than sell it or give it away, to prevent other loss of sales to Verdes. But I really would be tempted to buy the Chinese 9x9x9.