can WV be a substitute for not learning OLLs?

[Johannes91]

what i am thinking is to actually skip OLL. but i think it is impossible to do everytime.

Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.

I don't think the longest WV algs are really useful, but the easy ones are definitely worth knowing.

 

[ostracod]

Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.

This is true for a few cases, but ONLY because Sune is OPTIMAL for those cases (at least in my collection). In a couple cases, you do U R U2 R' and then Sune... If you want to see all of them, you can go to my page:

http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/Tripod/winter.html

I don't think the longest WV algs are really useful, but the easy ones are definitely worth knowing.

I'm not sure if it would be useful to know the really easy ones, since it takes a little time to recognize which WV case you have. For all the times which you DON'T know the case, you have to look at corner orientation TWICE (once for WV, once for OLL). The Winter variation is an all or nothing kind of technique...

 

[Kyle™]

Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself - > http://www.mediafire.com/?m0wd2motmwy

In reply to the thread creator, if you are worried about learning a lot of algorithms, you can just learn the first eight cases of ZBF2L as you were describing,
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1a.html
and the eight mirrors
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1b.html
and then learn the basic 7 OLLs with four edges oriented.
23 algorithms, all of which are really easy. You can average pretty fast with this. Is this what you are doing? I have been asking people for years to try this but I don't think anyone has.

 

[Johannes91]

For all the times which you DON'T know the case, you have to look at corner orientation TWICE (once for WV, once for OLL).

Since there are only 27 cases, it's easy to learn to see quickly which (O)LL case will come up before/while inserting the pair.

And even if I needed to recognize twice every time, I wouldn't consider it a huge problem. It doesn't take that long, though perhaps it's more significant for the really fast cubers.

The Winter variation is an all or nothing kind of technique...

Hmm, I think of it as exactly the opposite. Trying to use it every single time will make your solves really awkward. For many cases, it's much more natural to solve the ce-pair directly than to first pair it up and then use WV. Sometimes it would just waste time and moves.

I know at least one alg for each case, but rarely use the longest ones.

Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself

Nobody should be using only one, but many people just don't bother listing symmetric cases separately.

 

[Kyle™]

I have to agree with Johannes that WV can be used to avoid really stupid OLLs, which are easy to spot early on especially, otherwise I just place the pair normally. Remember, WV is only used a portion of the time, to avoid the slower OLLs. It doesn't really "replace" OLL in my opinion.

 

[chimpzi]

Depends on what skipping it means. Some WV fans say that R U' R' followed by a Sune avoids OLL.

This is true for a few cases, but ONLY because Sune is OPTIMAL for those cases (at least in my collection). In a couple cases, you do U R U2 R' and then Sune... If you want to see all of them, you can go to my page:

http://web.mac.com/teisenmann/Tripod/winter.html

I don't think the longest WV algs are really useful, but the easy ones are definitely worth knowing.

I'm not sure if it would be useful to know the really easy ones, since it takes a little time to recognize which WV case you have. For all the times which you DON'T know the case, you have to look at corner orientation TWICE (once for WV, once for OLL). The Winter variation is an all or nothing kind of technique...

i dont really understand why you mention wv as an all or nothing technique?..

im not really into zbf2l, im just learning the case1. so i pair the last c/e normally or intuitively then either apply partial edge control if there is only 2edges or 1edge oriented before inserting the paired c/e, or apply wv if all the 3edges in U are oriented. so its case to case basis for me.

Here are the algs for Winter variation for FR and BR slot, because I know some people use BR such as myself - > http://www.mediafire.com/?m0wd2motmwy

In reply to the thread creator, if you are worried about learning a lot of algorithms, you can just learn the first eight cases of ZBF2L as you were describing,
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1a.html
and the eight mirrors
here -> http://www.cubezone.be/conU1b.html
and then learn the basic 7 OLLs with four edges oriented.
23 algorithms, all of which are really easy. You can average pretty fast with this. Is this what you are doing? I have been asking people for years to try this but I don't think anyone has.

im actually on the process of learning that same 8 cases and its mirrors.
thanks for the BR slot algs for the WV..

I have to agree with Johannes that WV can be used to avoid really stupid OLLs, which are easy to spot early on especially, otherwise I just place the pair normally. Remember, WV is only used a portion of the time, to avoid the slower OLLs. It doesn't really "replace" OLL in my opinion.

what im thinking is to really avoid those hard cases.
an OLL skip if all 3edges on U are oriented before insertion[using wv], and 1 of the 7 OLL cases where all edges oriented[with the help of partial edge control] if not all the edges on U are oriented before insertion of the last c/e pair.

EDIT: i forgot the name of the founder of summer variation, but i PMed him already for his algs. is it blah?... pls respond whoever you are.. hehe thanks...

 

[ostracod]

When I said WV is "all or nothing", I meant that if you want to use it, you have to know ALL of the algorithms; This is unlike OLL and PLL, where you can accomplish your goal by fixing parts of the LL (for instance, you can use Sune 2 times to orient the corners, you can learn a 2 step PLL, etc).

However, I didn't mean that you have to use it ALL the time. Of course, you can decide to use a different technique such as EJF2L when you have an EJ pair. Or if you have an R U R' case, you can decide to leave WV behind and just apply an OLL algorithm. But these decisions don't involve looking at the U corner orientations... You are just thinking about which setup moves would be easiest.

It's true, as Johannes said, that you could use a very quick lookahead to see if you have an easy case. This would probably help some solves.

 

[chimpzi]

When I said WV is "all or nothing", I meant that if you want to use it, you have to know ALL of the algorithms; This is unlike OLL and PLL, where you can accomplish your goal by fixing parts of the LL (for instance, you can use Sune 2 times to orient the corners, you can learn a 2 step PLL, etc).

However, I didn't mean that you have to use it ALL the time. Of course, you can decide to use a different technique such as EJF2L when you have an EJ pair. Or if you have an R U R' case, you can decide to leave WV behind and just apply an OLL algorithm. But these decisions don't involve looking at the U corner orientations... You are just thinking about which setup moves would be easiest.
QUOTE]

ah.ok..its just a simple case of misunderstanding...

now i have to continue on 2-look OLL and maybe add those dot cases so i dont have to 3-look whenever it appears..
WV!.. here i come!.. haha...

 

[Edmund]

I'm at 17 averages and I am not planning on learning all OLLs for awhile. I was but I realized my recignition sucked so im rewinding and waiting

 

[Deleted member 2864]

Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20

I see nothing wrong with learning OLLs above sub 20... I mean, in the long run, you end up in the same place and learning it early only quickens your pace to sub 20. I'm at a solid 23 second average with full OLL/PLL.

 

[chimpzi]

maybe what he's trying to say is that f2l is more time consuming so it would be better to master it first?...

 

[brunson]

No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.

 

[chimpzi]

No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.

yup!.. true.. it happened to me many times before.
but even if you're inserting the 3rd pair you can also influence the LL edges.
http://www.cosine-systems.com/cubestation/f2l/f2ladvanced-influencingLLvh.php
so at least.

 

[Swordsman Kirby]

Agreed with two posts above. Don't learn OLLs until sub-20

Nah, I disagree. Though I've never actually finished learning the OLLs. Apparently I know 35.

 

[Lucas Garron]

No last slot method (ZB, WV, VH, MG, edge control) can avoid OLL completely, You always have a chance of inserting your third F2L pair and the last slot being made accidentally. If that happens and and you don't know OLL, then you have to waste moves *making* a case you know.

Nah. My ELS case happens to be an EOLL, and CLS is OCLL. (Unless it's one of the ~30 OLLs I know by now...)

But I agree with you. No last slot method can avoid CLS completely, either.