Is ZBLS still worth learning?

[jesinspirment]

At this era of cubing, we see people being super fast at F2L, OLL recognition/execution and PLL recognition/execution. Not to mention common tricks like winter variation, VLS etc. As of now, is it still a good idea to learn ZBLS?

I always had the desire to learn full ZB, but I put it on hold in order to experiment with ZZ. If I eventually get good at EOLine, then I don't have to learn ZBLS, and can just learn ZBLL. But I've tried ZZ for months, I just cannot do the EOLine. Either I cannot visualise the solution, or (in the event that I can visualise) I cannot execute the EOLine fast enough.

Current sub 13 with full CFOP (if that matters).

 

[Deleted member 55877]

ZBLS is only worth it if you already know full ZBLL (which is a lot of algs and isn't necessary to be very fast; say, sub 7)

 

[jesinspirment]

ZBLS is only worth it if you already know full ZBLL (which is a lot of algs and isn't necessary to be very fast; say, sub 7)

This reply helps, as it shows that ZBLS still has a place. Initially I had this misconception that ZBLS is no longer worth learning, because you can just do ZZ and forget about ZBLS, since the edges will definitely be oriented after ZZ's F2L. I do have the intention to learn full ZBLL, and I already started learning.

There's another 2 issues I'm thinking about.

Firstly, is ZBLS faster than last pair + OLL? Technically, ZBLS is also considered a "look", since you need to recognise the case to know which alg to use to orient the edges. But I'm guessing this look isn't too bad after a lot of practice, because you merely need to recognise the F2L case, and see how many edges are already oriented on top.

Secondly, if one decides to learn full ZB, thus having to learn ZBLS, does it mean that, you must always train/force yourself to always have the FR slot as the last slot, since the algs are for FR slot?

 

[OreKehStrah]

At this era of cubing, we see people being super fast at F2L, OLL recognition/execution and PLL recognition/execution. Not to mention common tricks like winter variation, VLS etc. As of now, is it still a good idea to learn ZBLS?

I always had the desire to learn full ZB, but I put it on hold in order to experiment with ZZ. If I eventually get good at EOLine, then I don't have to learn ZBLS, and can just learn ZBLL. But I've tried ZZ for months, I just cannot do the EOLine. Either I cannot visualise the solution, or (in the event that I can visualise) I cannot execute the EOLine fast enough.

Current sub 13 with full CFOP (if that matters).

It sounds like you should work on your ability to solve EO on its own first. If you can't visualize EO you're not gonna be successful with EOCross, which you should use over line except for OH. It's a lot more enjoyable to get good at EOCross/Line than to drill out ZBLS, especially if you're gonna learn it for all 4 slots.

 

[xyzzy]

Secondly, if one decides to learn full ZB, thus having to learn ZBLS, does it mean that, you must always train/force yourself to always have the FR slot as the last slot, since the algs are for FR slot?

The algs are usually written for FR, but nothing's stopping you from mirroring/rotating algs to the other slots, or even just doing a single rotation (as long as it's not a y2). There are some cases where you might want different algs for different slots (e.g. R B U' B' R' for FR versus R2 F R F' R for BR), but it'd be a lot more work learning any-slot ZBLS rather than just focusing on FR.

Not related to ZBLS per se, but I do remember Mats Valk's 4.74 world record single had VLS into the BR slot.

 

[ZB2op]

Secondly, if one decides to learn full ZB, thus having to learn ZBLS, does it mean that, you must always train/force yourself to always have the FR slot as the last slot, since the algs are for FR slot?

You can mirror them easily to FL and you last slot probably should be a front slot anyway.

[QUOTE="jesinspirment, post: 1417114, member: 21]

Firstly, is ZBLS faster than last pair + OLL? Technically, ZBLS is also considered a "look", since you need to recognise the case to know which alg to use to orient the edges. But I'm guessing this look isn't too bad after a lot of practice, because you merely need to recognise the F2L case, and see how many edges are already oriented on top.
[/QUOTE]
ZBLS is only as fast as OLL and PLL if you use ZBLL aswell.

 

[abunickabhi]

I do not think algorithmic ZBLS will be too useful. It will be better if you get to know all the cases of ZBLS that you feel are intuitive to you or makes sense, and leave out all the cases that you need to memorise an algorithm for.

 

[PapaSmurf]

As a ZZ user, I would obviously say stick with ZZ and get better at EOLine/Cross, but if you're going to go back to CFOP, it's better to be aware of EO as you solve and learn the easy ZBLS cases as you go. The FR slot dependency is definitely an issue if you're going to go for full ZBLS, but there are ways around it as already mentioned.

 

[Taran Pahuja]

ZBLS is only worth it if you already know full ZBLL (which is a lot of algs and isn't necessary to be very fast; say, sub 7)

ya it is zbll is around 473 algorithms which is too much to learn and if you are beginner it is very hard

 

[FishyIshy]

This reply helps, as it shows that ZBLS still has a place. Initially I had this misconception that ZBLS is no longer worth learning, because you can just do ZZ and forget about ZBLS, since the edges will definitely be oriented after ZZ's F2L. I do have the intention to learn full ZBLL, and I already started learning.

There's another 2 issues I'm thinking about.

Firstly, is ZBLS faster than last pair + OLL? Technically, ZBLS is also considered a "look", since you need to recognise the case to know which alg to use to orient the edges. But I'm guessing this look isn't too bad after a lot of practice, because you merely need to recognise the F2L case, and see how many edges are already oriented on top.

Secondly, if one decides to learn full ZB, thus having to learn ZBLS, does it mean that, you must always train/force yourself to always have the FR slot as the last slot, since the algs are for FR slot?

ZZ is actually slower though. So, ZBLS is actually worth it for CFOP users. I'm gonna start learning soon because by then, I will know a decent amount of ZBLLs. You just have to train the algs and make sure that your last pair recognition is as good as it can be. ANd you will not always need to use full ZB. Juliette Sebastien and Tymon Show examples of this all the time. If you don't have the FR slot, just do OLL and PLL. PLL is actually a part of ZBLL too.

 

[PapaSmurf]

ZZ is actually slower though. So, ZBLS is actually worth it for CFOP users. I'm gonna start learning soon because by then, I will know a decent amount of ZBLLs. You just have to train the algs and make sure that your last pair recognition is as good as it can be. ANd you will not always need to use full ZB. Juliette Sebastien and Tymon Show examples of this all the time. If you don't have the FR slot, just do OLL and PLL. PLL is actually a part of ZBLL too.

The method debate thread

people can already plan EOcross in inspection, and some can do XEOcross, and even with eo cross its still more efficient than cfop if you include zbll yeah but it's not like you know full zbll.

www.speedsolving.com

Read this and keep the debate to that thread, but no, ZZ isn't slower.

But yeah, forcing ZBLL from bad cases isn't a good idea, but when you have a sledge as the ZBLS, obviously do.