Older cubers discussions

Grzegorz @h2f, your attempt has motivated me to have a go. I will try to find time after the Guildford comp. I already watched Roman's video on obliques and am fairly happy that I know how to approach it. The thing that looks most difficult to me is taking care to choose the right slices, because of how you must constantly switch between inner and outer slices when solving the obliques.

I'm happy to read it. Yes, I think the hardest part is to take right slice. The other - differenitate between obliques whether they + or -. I remember Hans Hubb metnioned he uses U2 method for centers but I cant figure out how to deal with targets on D layer. I'm just curious because I do it with comms.
 
I remember Hans Hubb metnioned he uses U2 method for centers but I cant figure out how to deal with targets on D layer. I'm just curious because I do it with comms.
I use "advanced" U2 in the same sense as advanced M2. My buffer is Ubr so I try to set up D targets to Ufl and do a comm whenever possible. When not possible, there's an alg to solve Dbl directly.
 
You mean Xcenters? I mean for +/- obliques. For Xcenters I think it's the same alg like in 4bld and 5bld.
I mean X centers. I haven't tried obliques yet. I would first try to set up to a comm at Ufl same as other centers. If that fails, I have no idea whether the X center alg would work, although that alg is just a complicated setup to a regular U2 swap so it might not be too hard to figure it how to adapt it to obliques.
 
@JohnnyReggae - That is excellent news. Best of luck. I look forward ti hearing about your progress as a delegate and as for comps in Cape Town. I have a lot of distant family there so I would never count out a visit :D

@megagoune - I think it is down to pure personal preference. Much like the difference of solving on white or black before stickerless became competition legal. I never used to be able to solve on white. I got a few stickerless as I collected cubes and found them better about 6 months ago. Solving on stickered now the borders of black just put me off. Don't think they are any better generally, just another option worth trying as you may prefer them. Having said that I was sorting out a 7x7 from my collection for a UK cuber who doesn't hav one this evening and found a boxed YJ Guansu 4x4. Decided to have a solve and 50.77. Thats a white cube, what do I know :D
@Selkie - Looking forward to some comps in Cape Town, we're having one early December. As for a visit, it would be good meet up with another oldie cuber ;-)

On the stickerless front ... All my cubes are black because that's what I started with. I then decided to change the standard shades to something a little more unique and now I sticker all my cubes with the same shades. The only draw back is getting the stickers and the only place I'm getting them for now is from TheCubicle. I'd like to try a good stickerless 3x3 but am not so keen on spending a bunch of cash on one that I may just use occasionally. But having said that I've spent money on some 3x3's that are just sitting in the cupboard ... kinda the same thing I suppose :-)
 
@pglewis - Welcome to the oldie thread ... it is definitely one of the most active threads.

As for the Nb perm .. Have you tried the lefty mirror of the Na perm ? I use a bunch of lefty mirrors of certain algs which made them much easier to learn. The only drawback for me was when starting OH the lefty mirror algs don't OH so well, so I've had to learn a few more algs to do OH.
 
@pglewis Welcome to the thread. I'm 46 and have never been to a comp yet but would like to. I'm still figthing with consistently sub-20 global average but it's certainly possible for people our age. You just need to put the work and passion and you will get there eventually.
 
I didn't have the opportunity to event record a decent average last weekend so I tried again today. Got 4 cubes and tried to do several Ao5 with each, starting to record every 5 solves. I chose the Gan 356 Air, Guoguan Yuexiao, YJ Sulong and Moyu Hualong. I didn't even get to record with the Hualong and the best Ao5 was with the Yuexiao, which I bring here for everybody to critizice and laugh a bit at.

It's not even "on camera" PB but I wanted to show my new Rubik's mug ;) At least it's an Ao5 of just 5 solves, not the best solves extracted of the middle of a longer session, but all solves are super sloppy and, of course, I had to do a bad one at the end. I can't really turn even this not-so-fast without locking up, making mistakes, etc. so I don't really know what to do except slow down and try to have better lookahead. Increasing TPS is not gonna work for me as for you guys.

avg of 5: 17.81
1. (17.08) B2 F2 R2 B2 D2 L' B2 D2 R' U2 L D B D' L' U2 F U B' U2 L
2. 18.92 B2 F2 D' B2 L2 B2 U' B2 D' F2 B' L2 R' B' L R' U2 L2 D'
3. 17.39 L2 D' U' B2 D B2 F2 L2 U F2 U' L B' F2 D L B' F' D' L U'
4. 17.10 B U' F B' U B' U R' L' U R2 F2 B2 L2 U R2 D' L2 U' F
5. (23.51) B' L2 R2 D2 F R2 B2 F' L2 D L2 B2 L' B' R U' B L2

 
I didn't have the opportunity to event record a decent average last weekend so I tried again today. Got 4 cubes and tried to do several Ao5 with each, starting to record every 5 solves. I chose the Gan 356 Air, Guoguan Yuexiao, YJ Sulong and Moyu Hualong. I didn't even get to record with the Hualong and the best Ao5 was with the Yuexiao, which I bring here for everybody to critizice and laugh a bit at.

It's not even "on camera" PB but I wanted to show my new Rubik's mug ;) At least it's an Ao5 of just 5 solves, not the best solves extracted of the middle of a longer session, but all solves are super sloppy and, of course, I had to do a bad one at the end. I can't really turn even this not-so-fast without locking up, making mistakes, etc. so I don't really know what to do except slow down and try to have better lookahead. Increasing TPS is not gonna work for me as for you guys.

avg of 5: 17.81
1. (17.08) B2 F2 R2 B2 D2 L' B2 D2 R' U2 L D B D' L' U2 F U B' U2 L
2. 18.92 B2 F2 D' B2 L2 B2 U' B2 D' F2 B' L2 R' B' L R' U2 L2 D'
3. 17.39 L2 D' U' B2 D B2 F2 L2 U F2 U' L B' F2 D L B' F' D' L U'
4. 17.10 B U' F B' U B' U R' L' U R2 F2 B2 L2 U R2 D' L2 U' F
5. (23.51) B' L2 R2 D2 F R2 B2 F' L2 D L2 B2 L' B' R U' B L2

Really nice! I think you are a tad bit faster than me. I have a few pointers though. I see you look for your first pair every time. This is probably that even with the 30 seconds inspection (LOL) you probably do not plan your entire cross. If you do plan the entire cross you should be able to find your first pair while executing the cross. Other than that, I think you will speed up anyway.. Your lookahead will become faster eventually.
 
Really nice! I think you are a tad bit faster than me. I have a few pointers though. I see you look for your first pair every time. This is probably that even with the 30 seconds inspection (LOL) you probably do not plan your entire cross. If you do plan the entire cross you should be able to find your first pair while executing the cross. Other than that, I think you will speed up anyway.. Your lookahead will become faster eventually.
Thanks for the feedback but I think you are a bit faster than me :) I have absolutely no sub-10 singles, for example (and no sub-11 for that matter). You are completely right that I cannot usually see my first pair unless I have already planned it during inspection, which happens rarely. And you are right that I many times have problems seeing the last D alignment of centers after cross, if it is a D or D', which makes me waste some tenths on that and also blocks my lookahead to 1st F2L pair, so I should work on that. Regarding the 30 second inspection... not sure if it was a joke or what. I overinspected in the last, terrible solve, the others were all around 8-10 seconds inspection. Do you think I over/under inspect?
 
I didn't have the opportunity to event record a decent average last weekend so I tried again today. Got 4 cubes and tried to do several Ao5 with each, starting to record every 5 solves. I chose the Gan 356 Air, Guoguan Yuexiao, YJ Sulong and Moyu Hualong. I didn't even get to record with the Hualong and the best Ao5 was with the Yuexiao, which I bring here for everybody to critizice and laugh a bit at.

It's not even "on camera" PB but I wanted to show my new Rubik's mug ;) At least it's an Ao5 of just 5 solves, not the best solves extracted of the middle of a longer session, but all solves are super sloppy and, of course, I had to do a bad one at the end. I can't really turn even this not-so-fast without locking up, making mistakes, etc. so I don't really know what to do except slow down and try to have better lookahead. Increasing TPS is not gonna work for me as for you guys.

avg of 5: 17.81
1. (17.08) B2 F2 R2 B2 D2 L' B2 D2 R' U2 L D B D' L' U2 F U B' U2 L
2. 18.92 B2 F2 D' B2 L2 B2 U' B2 D' F2 B' L2 R' B' L R' U2 L2 D'
3. 17.39 L2 D' U' B2 D B2 F2 L2 U F2 U' L B' F2 D L B' F' D' L U'
4. 17.10 B U' F B' U B' U R' L' U R2 F2 B2 L2 U R2 D' L2 U' F
5. (23.51) B' L2 R2 D2 F R2 B2 F' L2 D L2 B2 L' B' R U' B L2

I spill tea down myself often with that mug.
 
Thanks for all the welcomes. I went back a few weeks in the thread time machine and have enjoyed reading the progress other folks are making... and picked up a few things without even trying to :D.

[...] As for the Nb perm .. Have you tried the lefty mirror of the Na perm ? I use a bunch of lefty mirrors of certain algs which made them much easier to learn. The only drawback for me was when starting OH the lefty mirror algs don't OH so well, so I've had to learn a few more algs to do OH.

The one I have down in my spreadsheet ( probably picked up from Christopher Olsen) just reverses the U, D, and R moves of the Na perm. But I just added Na so no huge rush... the Ns come up with a 1/72 frequency each I think. I just tackled full PLL about 6 weeks ago. That's earlier than planned but I was about to learn a bunch of F2L optimization that was going to temporarily raise my times anyway and I figured I might as well start chewing on them. I had everything but the two Ns "learned" after a couple weeks but recognition and recall is an ongoing thing. I was hovering, plateaued, just a smidge under a minute ao5, like :58, when I started that process about a month and a half ago. Times ballooned to about 1:08 while absorbing stuff, and then all the new stuff started to come together at the same time. In quick succession I started seeing mid 50s, low 50s, then cracking sub 50 ao5s. My PB 3 of 5 is now 41.59 and I can feel I'm right on the brink of seeing a lot more sub 40s.

I'm still at the stage where I only hit the timer once or twice a week and do a lot of slow solve practice to solidify things. I recently sat down and did a dozen timed runs on the individual Cross, F2L, and LL stages to evaluate.

Adding all the means: 44.269, which matches about where I am when warmed up and in "cube brain"

Worst of each: 1:05.763, right on the money for my botched solves

Theoretical best: 32.281, about 2 seconds better than my actual PB. I've had a few untimed solves that "felt" sub 30; a friendly F2L plus PLL skip should manage to catch a single sub 30 in the act before long.

breakdown.jpg


Here's my game plan based on those results:

* Cross: I'm definitely bleeding a few seconds on my averages due to the slower ones but not a lot of time to be gained on a "good solve" (keeping in mind I'm out to shed 20+ seconds, not 3). Those times are clear improvements from the last time I checked. Plan of attack: cross practice will happen as a byproduct of F2L practice, just keep doing what I'm doing and re-evaluate the cross when the F2L gains are harder to come by.

* F2L: Averaging nearly 6 seconds per pair I needn't look elsewhere for low hanging fruit. Spotting pairs is still very slow for me after months of practice; it's simply a weak point for me. OTOH it's probably down 15+ seconds from where it was a little over a month ago. Plan of attack: keep pounding F2L with a focus on look-ahead.

* Last Layer: all over the map, not surprisingly, I haven't put much effort at all into targeted last layer drills. 2 look OLL isn't costing me a lot at my current level vs the recognition full OLL would require, so that stays in the "re-evaluate later" pile for now. Still being green on full PLL means some of the algs are faster than others and there's a lot of staring time for recog and recall. Plan of attack: clearly some easy time to be had here with targeted PLL drills. I still may let it progress naturally and continue the focus on F2L. There is some comfort believing there will still be easy time to find after squeezing F2L :D.
 
Thanks for all the welcomes. I went back a few weeks in the thread time machine and have enjoyed reading the progress other folks are making... and picked up a few things without even trying to :D.



The one I have down in my spreadsheet ( probably picked up from Christopher Olsen) just reverses the U, D, and R moves of the Na perm. But I just added Na so no huge rush... the Ns come up with a 1/72 frequency each I think. I just tackled full PLL about 6 weeks ago. That's earlier than planned but I was about to learn a bunch of F2L optimization that was going to temporarily raise my times anyway and I figured I might as well start chewing on them. I had everything but the two Ns "learned" after a couple weeks but recognition and recall is an ongoing thing. I was hovering, plateaued, just a smidge under a minute ao5, like :58, when I started that process about a month and a half ago. Times ballooned to about 1:08 while absorbing stuff, and then all the new stuff started to come together at the same time. In quick succession I started seeing mid 50s, low 50s, then cracking sub 50 ao5s. My PB 3 of 5 is now 41.59 and I can feel I'm right on the brink of seeing a lot more sub 40s.

I'm still at the stage where I only hit the timer once or twice a week and do a lot of slow solve practice to solidify things. I recently sat down and did a dozen timed runs on the individual Cross, F2L, and LL stages to evaluate.

Adding all the means: 44.269, which matches about where I am when warmed up and in "cube brain"

Worst of each: 1:05.763, right on the money for my botched solves

Theoretical best: 32.281, about 2 seconds better than my actual PB. I've had a few untimed solves that "felt" sub 30; a friendly F2L plus PLL skip should manage to catch a single sub 30 in the act before long.

View attachment 6940

Here's my game plan based on those results:

* Cross: I'm definitely bleeding a few seconds on my averages due to the slower ones but not a lot of time to be gained on a "good solve" (keeping in mind I'm out to shed 20+ seconds, not 3). Those times are clear improvements from the last time I checked. Plan of attack: cross practice will happen as a byproduct of F2L practice, just keep doing what I'm doing and re-evaluate the cross when the F2L gains are harder to come by.

* F2L: Averaging nearly 6 seconds per pair I needn't look elsewhere for low hanging fruit. Spotting pairs is still very slow for me after months of practice; it's simply a weak point for me. OTOH it's probably down 15+ seconds from where it was a little over a month ago. Plan of attack: keep pounding F2L with a focus on look-ahead.

* Last Layer: all over the map, not surprisingly, I haven't put much effort at all into targeted last layer drills. 2 look OLL isn't costing me a lot at my current level vs the recognition full OLL would require, so that stays in the "re-evaluate later" pile for now. Still being green on full PLL means some of the algs are faster than others and there's a lot of staring time for recog and recall. Plan of attack: clearly some easy time to be had here with targeted PLL drills. I still may let it progress naturally and continue the focus on F2L. There is some comfort believing there will still be easy time to find after squeezing F2L :D.
Welcome @pglewis
I might be the first but I won't be the last person to suggest cross practice. Try a lengthy inspection and plan the whole cross then do it blind.
 
Welcome @pglewis
I might be the first but I won't be the last person to suggest cross practice. Try a lengthy inspection and plan the whole cross then do it blind.

I have no doubt you're right, just part of me says "save that for later and I'll still have easy time on the table at the next plateau" :D. Thinking bang for the buck I figured every second I cut off an F2L pair gets multiplied by 4... and there are definitely seconds to cut per pair.

All my thinking out loud here aside I'll probably take your advice soon. On the cross I generally still aim to plan 3 edges and let the 4th "just happen". My spatial "cube sense" and short term memory are both innately quite poor and my improvements there have been through sheer force of will and stubbornness. On the strong side, I've played guitar as a very serious hobby for over 30 years, so learning algs and dexterity is probably pretty good for pushing 50. I'm no stranger to scales, repetition, and muscle memory and as a result I tend to still hand-wave past my slow last layer with "it'll get faster, don't worry, it'll just get faster".
 
@pglewis: great stuff, I really like your approach, and I agree with you that F2L should be your focus. My recommendation would be to first make sure you have a good efficient set of solutions and understand how they work. Use a resource like AlgDB.net for that. Then, importantly, practice them blind. So use F2L scrambles (many timers do these), find each pair, then close your eyes and solve. Then open eyes and find the next pair and so on. This is important because it gets you used to solving pieces without watching them move around, which frees up your eyes for recognition of other pieces to solve next. You'll be amazed how quickly that will wipe 10 seconds off your F2L.
 
@pglewis I've never timed the stages of my solves separately, but your post inspired me to give it a try. :) Currently I tend to average around 27 seconds, and in this test my Ao12 for cross/F2L/LL was 4.2/14.4/9.5 (=28.1). I used 15 second inspection for cross and no inspection for F2L and LL.

Interestingly, if I look at these numbers to calculate a percentage of total solve time spent on each stage I get splits of 14.9%, 51.2% and 33.8%, which is very close to your 14.7%, 53.8% and 31.4%. I've spent most of my slow practice time drilling F2L. Cross and LL has come as a by-product of that. I think even if you spend most of the time practicing F2L, you will see the cross and LL times improve in relation to your F2L improvement.

Though in this test I did notice that I really should practice the cross more, with timed inspection. I only started doing 15 sec inspection quite recently and don't always succeed in planning the entire cross in that time. In this test, when I managed to plan the entire cross during inspection my cross times were in the 2-3 second range. But then there was a few 6-8 second crosses when I couldn't plan the entire cross. That's a 4-5 second difference I really need to get rid of!
 
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