(Canceled) Petition to make Kilominx/2x2 Megaminx an official WCA event.

[Solar]

Hey, Justin? I think you're getting too worked up for your own good.

You cannot argue that 3x3 is trivial because of the same reason Skewb has been trivialised. I simply cannot fathom why someone would compare a simple, easy, spammable method like Sarah Intermediate/Advanced (note: 2 four-move algs that are inverses) to CFOP. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Skewb is significantly more trivial than 3x3 in terms of number of states, God's Number, and the near-optimality and quick learning curve of the most common methods.

Sure, Kilominx has a million times the number of states for 3x3. But, since you got pretty concerned with LL:
- Kilominx LL states: 1944. 3x3 LL states: 15552.
- Kilominx OLL is 8.5 moves on average, where 3x3 OLL is 9.7.
- Kilominx OLL has 16 unsolved cases, where 3x3 OLL has 57.
- Kilominx OLL skip probability: 1/81. 3x3 OLL skip probability: 1/216.
- Kilominx PLL is 8.2 moves on average, where 3x3 PLL is 11.8.
- Kilominx PLL has 3 unsolved cases, where 3x3 PLL has 21.
- Kilominx PLL skip probability: 1/12. 3x3 PLL skip probability: 1/72.
You ask us to compare events' triviality and then argue it's "apples and oranges". That makes you look like an idiot.


Yeah, it was the original puzzle. Try again.


Then the obvious first step for all pro-Kilominx solvers is to push competition organisers to hold it unofficially. If it gets to be popular enough in the global competition scene, then the first two items on my above list are satisfied.
Additionally, develop more methods for Kilominx! So far, I'm just seeing Megaminx-style solving.


This is literally the easiest part of it all for Kilominx. It's a matter of altering five regulations.

I have them here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DtrEt_XiaqfP45mh4XEgUypus2ngQpm1NqDz61c3AA/edit?usp=sharing
Not sure if it's good (probably isn't). Still considering the last one though... Help and criticism is (definitely) welcome.

 

[Ranzha]

I have them here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DtrEt_XiaqfP45mh4XEgUypus2ngQpm1NqDz61c3AA/edit
Not sure if it's good (probably isn't). Still considering the last one though... Help and criticism is (definitely) welcome.

You have to enable link-sharing first. Also, the regulation situation is more or less trivial. It's deciding what regulations to change that makes the difference.

 

[JustinTimeCuber]

Hey, Justin? I think you're getting too worked up for your own good.

You cannot argue that 3x3 is trivial because of the same reason Skewb has been trivialised. I simply cannot fathom why someone would compare a simple, easy, spammable method like Sarah Intermediate/Advanced (note: 2 four-move algs that are inverses) to CFOP. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Skewb is significantly more trivial than 3x3 in terms of number of states, God's Number, and the near-optimality and quick learning curve of the most common methods.

Hold on. I never said that Skewb wasn't less trivial than 3x3. However, if you are going off "triviality", Skewb, Pyra, and 2x2 should all be removed. I also think Kilominx is wayyyy less trivial than those events (and most would agree), so comparing Skewb to Kilominx on that front is inaccurate.

Sure, Kilominx has a million times the number of states for 3x3. But, since you got pretty concerned with LL:
- Kilominx LL states: 1944. 3x3 LL states: 15552.
- Kilominx OLL is 8.5 moves on average, where 3x3 OLL is 9.7.
- Kilominx OLL has 16 unsolved cases, where 3x3 OLL has 57.
- Kilominx OLL skip probability: 1/81. 3x3 OLL skip probability: 1/216.
- Kilominx PLL is 8.2 moves on average, where 3x3 PLL is 11.8.
- Kilominx PLL has 3 unsolved cases, where 3x3 PLL has 21.
- Kilominx PLL skip probability: 1/12. 3x3 PLL skip probability: 1/72.
You ask us to compare events' triviality and then argue it's "apples and oranges". That makes you look like an idiot.

First, let me clear the whole "apples and oranges" thing up. I wasn't the one who brought up triviality. I responded to that criticism by saying that the LL on Kilominx may be easier but it is so hard to quantify the F2L and S2L that you are left only being able to look at half of each event because the other halves are not easily comparable.
As with the whole LL thing, again, that is just half of the puzzle. Even if you think that the Kilominx S2L is more trivial than F2L on 3x3, is that a problem? What is wrong with a lower number of LL states, anyway? Is 15552 the lower bound? What about 15551? Is that okay?

Yeah, it was the original puzzle. Try again.

So? What if Kilominx were the original puzzle and someone released a 3x3 for the first time?

Then the obvious first step for all pro-Kilominx solvers is to push competition organisers to hold it unofficially. If it gets to be popular enough in the global competition scene, then the first two items on my above list are satisfied.
Additionally, develop more methods for Kilominx! So far, I'm just seeing Megaminx-style solving.

Great! I'm considering organizing a competition in the next few months. Maybe I'll have a round of Kilominx!
Side note: Maybe people should develop more methods for 8x8, I'm only seeing 6x6-style solving.

 

[Ranzha]

Hold on. I never said that Skewb wasn't less trivial than 3x3. However, if you are going off "triviality", Skewb, Pyra, and 2x2 should all be removed. I also think Kilominx is wayyyy less trivial than those events (and most would agree), so comparing Skewb to Kilominx on that front is inaccurate.

Yes--you never said Skewb wasn't less trivial than 3x3. You said: "100% of my 3x3 solves are done using CFOP, so, since by that logic, my 3x3 solves are trivial, I shouldn't solve 3x3. A common method is just that- a common method" IN RESPONSE TO Kit talking about Skewb devolving into a sledgefest in 2014. That's where my comment came from. I wasn't comparing Skewb to Kilominx in any way, I was instead attacking your piss-poor argument that using a method trivialises a puzzle outright.

First, let me clear the whole "apples and oranges" thing up. I wasn't the one who brought up triviality. I responded to that criticism by saying that the LL on Kilominx may be easier but it is so hard to quantify the F2L and S2L that you are left only being able to look at half of each event because the other halves are not easily comparable.

Well, consider them compared. I offered a comparison. You said "I want someone to tell me with a straight face that this is any worse than a 3x3 solve with a PLL skip when it comes to being "trivial"", and Chris and others have been doing so ever since.

As with the whole LL thing, again, that is just half of the puzzle. Even if you think that the Kilominx S2L is more trivial than F2L on 3x3, is that a problem? What is wrong with a lower number of LL states, anyway? Is 15552 the lower bound? What about 15551? Is that okay?

You were trying to argue that a Kilominx is not less trivial than 3x3 because of the practicality of PLL skips. You failed to factor in the probability of such a thing happening, so I did the work for you. It isn't about the actual number of LL states as it is trying to get you to see that elements of Kilominx solving are much more prone to luck (read: trivial states) than the corresponding elements of 3x3.

So? What if Kilominx were the original puzzle and someone released a 3x3 for the first time?

Then I would use the same logic. It isn't about what could have happened in the past. You need to face the reality that 3x3 came first and as a result cannot be compared to Kilominx as you tried, end of story.

Great! I'm considering organizing a competition in the next few months. Maybe I'll have a round of Kilominx!
Side note: Maybe people should develop more methods for 8x8, I'm only seeing 6x6-style solving.

Having rounds of Kilominx will help you considerably more than posting in this thread. You're wasting my time.

 

[Isaac Lai]

simple, easy, spammable method like Sarah Intermediate/Advanced (note: 2 four-move algs that are inverses)

Skewb nowadays is much more than this.

 

[JustinTimeCuber]

1. Where do you draw the line between trivial events and non-trivial events?
2. More goes into skewb and 2x2 than you are assuming.
3. By "asking people to compare", I was trying to make the point that it isn't easy to objectively compare the trivialities of 3x3 and Kilominx. The mention of PLL was just because the posted solve had a PLL skip.
4. Let's say kilo is 3x more trivial (whatever that's supposed to mean). I ask again: so?

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

 

[wir3sandfir3s]

Jesus Christ I feel like I'm back at the HK thread... which you should not search btw...

 

[Loiloiloi]

Is there a petition I can sign to make kilominx stay unofficial? Lol.

 

[Solar]

I still need some advice for the regs :/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DtrEt_XiaqfP45mh4XEgUypus2ngQpm1NqDz61c3AA/edit

 

[JustinTimeCuber]

I still need some advice for the regs :/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DtrEt_XiaqfP45mh4XEgUypus2ngQpm1NqDz61c3AA/edit

A lot of these treat Kilominx like it's somehow special compared to the other events. Example:
- 4d1) NxNxN puzzles and Megaminx are scrambled starting with the white face (if not possible, then the lightest face) on top and the green face (if not possible, then the darkest adjacent face) on the front. This applies to Kilominx.

Here are the 8 regulations I would add/change. Does anyone see something that's missing?

* 3l1a) For Pyraminx, Kilominx, and 2x2x2, the logo may be on any piece.
* 9b1) Rubik's Cube, 2x2x2 Cube, 4x4x4 Cube, 5x5x5 Cube, Clock, Megaminx, Pyraminx, Kilominx, Square-1, Skewb, and Rubik's Cube: One-Handed.
* 10f2) Megaminx and Kilominx: at most 36 degrees.
+ 12i) Notation for Kilominx:
+ 12i1) Clockwise, 72 degrees: F (front face), U (upper face), L (left face adjacent to front and upper face), R (right face adjacent to front and upper face), bL (back left face adjacent to left (L) and upper face), bR (back right face adjacent to right (R) and upper face), dL (lower left face opposite the back right (bR) face), dR (lower right face opposite the back left (bL) face), dbL (lower back left face opposite the right (R) face), dbR (lower back right face opposite the left (L) face), B (back face opposite the front (F) face), D (lower face opposite the upper (U) face).
+ 12i2) Anti-clockwise, 72 degrees: F', U', L', R', bL', bR', dL', dR', dbL', dbR', B', D'
+ 12i3) Clockwise, 144 degrees: F2, U2, L2, R2, bL2, bR2, dL2, dR2, dbL2, dbR2, B2, D2
+ 12i4) Anti-clockwise, 144 degrees: F2', U2', L2', R2', bL2', bR2', dL2', dR2', dbL2', dbR2', B2', D2'

 

[stoic]

Rising popularity? What? Where?

This.
I didn't even know this puzzle had this name. Isn't it flowerminx?

 

[JustinTimeCuber]

This.
I didn't even know this puzzle had this name. Isn't it flowerminx?

The flowerminx was a slightly modified kilominx I believe, but everyone calls the normal puzzle the kilominx.

 

[stoic]

Ah, ok.
I must have missed all the times people were talking about it, ever.

 

[sqAree]

I don't own a Kilominx and usually I'm against adding new official events (except for Gigaminx but I can see how there is an issue), but I can imagine Kilominx being a quite nice event. Personally, I have a strong doubt that someone will find a solving method that makes this trivial.

 

[Solar]

Wait... stupid question to ask but I just can't tell. JustinTimeCuber, are you pro, con, or neutral for Kilominx? REALLY stupid question but I just can't tell.

 

[Ranzha]

Skewb nowadays is much more than this.

Nowadays, yes. But for the whole of 2014, Skewb was a sledgefest.

1. Where do you draw the line between trivial events and non-trivial events?
2. More goes into skewb and 2x2 than you are assuming.
3. By "asking people to compare", I was trying to make the point that it isn't easy to objectively compare the trivialities of 3x3 and Kilominx. The mention of PLL was just because the posted solve had a PLL skip.
4. Let's say kilo is 3x more trivial (whatever that's supposed to mean). I ask again: so?

Sent from my MotoE2(4G-LTE) using Tapatalk

1. It's not that there's a line to draw. It's that there are considerations to be made in terms of the rate of improvement and the chance of times being influenced by luck. For 2x2, which is of course the most extreme example, this is a huge problem.
2. Are the best solvers the ones who can best deal with lucky cases? I get that people learn loads of algs for 2x2 and skewb and learn to recognise nearly every possible case with many viable solutions in some cases. However, the highly-ranked solvers are so ranked because they got good cases. How much skill does it require to see 4-moves on 2x2 or one move to double sledge on Skewb?
3. You're right in that it's hard to quantify trivialities based on events with much different elements to the common solving styles. However, asking people to compare is a terrible way to try and make that point.
4. Again, putting a number on puzzle triviality is not a standardised measure. I gave my definition of triviality with my initial post. I feel like time will tell just how easy Kilominx may be, and I anticipate that if made official, the event will be dominated by people who are already highly ranked. This didn't happen with Skewb except for the case of Jay McNeill.

I still need some advice for the regs :/
https://docs.google.com/document/d/14DtrEt_XiaqfP45mh4XEgUypus2ngQpm1NqDz61c3AA/edit

Your changes don't reflect how the regulations currently read.

I'd do this:

• 3d3 (megaminx tile thickness) remains as is. Do you know why this regulation exists?
• Change: 3l1a) For Pyraminx, 2x2x2, and Kilominx, the logo may be on any piece.
• Until a random-state scrambler exists, use Pochmann Megaminx convention (notation and length).
  Change: 4b3e) 5x5x5 Cube, 6x6x6 Cube, 7x7x7 Cube, Megaminx, and Kilominx: sufficiently many random moves (instead of random state), at least 2 moves to solve.
  Change: 12d) Notation for Megaminx and Kilominx (scrambling notation only):
  
• When a random-state scrambler is applied, use the notation Justin described by appending Article 12.
  
• Change: 4d1) NxNxN puzzles, Megaminx, and Kilominx are scrambled starting with the white face (if not possible, then the lightest face) on top and the green face (if not possible, then the darkest adjacent face) on the front.
• 4g1 (scramble correctness exception) remains as is.
• Change 9b1 to include Kilominx.
• Change: 10f2) Megaminx and Kilominx: at most 36 degrees.

Initially this would be an addition of 8 words to the regs.

 

[DGCubes]

This.
I didn't even know this puzzle had this name. Isn't it flowerminx?

Can we please have a petition to call it Flowerminx?

Here's a copy-paste of my comment on JRCuber's Kilominx video:

Anyone else bothered by how this puzzle really doesn't have a sensible name? If a Megaminx is like a 3x3, and a Gigaminx is like a 5x5, etc., a Kilominx should technically be on the order of a 1x1, if we're actually following SI prefixes like we should be. Plus, we can't really call it a 2x2 Megaminx which is at least slightly more logical, because that's another puzzle (that one by WitEden).

Personally, my biggest problem with this becoming a WCA event is its misnomer. I think it'd be a great event to add if people still retain interest in a few months. I'm sure the WCA would think it through a ton, but my two cents is that they should at least wait until the initial cycle of hype dies down before making a decision.

And if that cycle doesn't die down, well, there's our answer (or at least mine).

 

[Solar]

So after some consideration by the people who are working on the petition, we will be taking it down, but reposting it in 1 1/2 (EDIT: 2 years) years to see if people still care.

The timing was horrible, and we weren't prepared for many things. We will work for the next 1 1/2 years to make a better approach.

This thread will be removed tomorrow.

 

[4Chan]

That does it, I'm going to hold Kilominix as an unofficial event at Princeton Fall 2016!!

I'll include a prize for the winner!
Let's get the ball rolling!

 

[Solar]

The regulations will be kept in a safe document, and will be used again in 2 years. Would you like me to mention you (reffering to Ranzha and Justin)?