(Canceled) Petition to make Kilominx/2x2 Megaminx an official WCA event.

"It's a variation of a variation!"
So is 4BLD.

Here's something else: Megaminx was an official event from the beginning. Maybe 3x3 is the variation and we shouldn't be doing 2x2, 4x4, 5x5, etc. at all! Then, Kilominx would just be a variation and not a "variation of a variation". But honestly, what's wrong with a variation of a variation?
 
JustinTimeCuber said:
"It's a variation of a variation!"
So is 4BLD.

Here's something else: Megaminx was an official event from the beginning. Maybe 3x3 is the variation and we shouldn't be doing 2x2, 4x4, 5x5, etc. at all! Then, Kilominx would just be a variation and not a "variation of a variation". But honestly, what's wrong with a variation of a variation?
Click to expand...
Well said. My brain hurts.

I think Kilominx is a better variation squared than the nonsense people come up with like multiblind one-footed 7x7 FMC. I should make a pros and cons list.
 
Matt11111 said:
Well said. My brain hurts.

I think Kilominx is a better variation squared than the nonsense people come up with like multiblind one-footed 7x7 FMC. I should make a pros and cons list.
Click to expand...
The problem with 7x7 MBLDOFFMC isn't that it's a variation of a variation but that
a) It's insanely difficult. Some BigBLD solvers could maybe do 7x7 MBLD, but not with one foot, and the FMC thing adds a whole other layer to it. I would actually like to see someone do a 2/2 MBLD with 3x3s using one foot in under 160 moves total.
b) It makes a joke of the number of events. There are 18 now. Over 30 imo starts to get crazy, i.e. there are events that hardly ever are held. Think of all the events that would pretty much need to be added in addition to 7x7 MBLDOFFMC.
 
Posted on fb, reddit, and now here.

Some things that are needed in order for new events to become official:
- Community interest
- Community support
- Puzzle non-triviality
- Regulation implementation (event formats, scrambling orientation, misalignment penalties, etc.)
- Scrambler program (random-state preferred)
- TNoodle integration of scrambler program
- WCA website integration
And pretty much in that order until scramble program

Echoing what Lucas said, Kilominx needs to be a regularly held unofficial event worldwide and have people actually compete in it. That should satisfy the first two items, granted there isn't strong backlash from non-competitors in Kilominx.

I define "puzzle non-triviality" as a puzzle being complex enough to effectively resist:
- easy, short scrambles (like 2x2, Pyraminx, Skewb)
- trivially easy solution methods (like Skewb)
- trivial reducibility to other official events (like L/R teamsolving reducing to OH)
I'm pretty confident Kilominx has satisfied the first and third of these, but I'm not sure about the second one. I didn't foresee that Skewb would become a sledging tps fest, and I wouldn't want that to happen again.

A random-state scrambler program would be an interesting development, but what would the notation be? Kit mentioned on reddit that he thinks Kilominx wouldn't be one of the few puzzles where incorrect scrambles don't matter, and I agree.

Sajwo said:
But the narrow-minded WCA won't change anything of course. It's just easier for them :) Listening to the request of community pays off.. always
Click to expand...
What the actual
 
Ranzha said:
Posted on fb, reddit, and now here.

Some things that are needed in order for new events to become official:
- Community interest
- Community support
- Puzzle non-triviality
- Regulation implementation (event formats, scrambling orientation, misalignment penalties, etc.)
- Scrambler program (random-state preferred)
- TNoodle integration of scrambler program
- WCA website integration
And pretty much in that order until scramble program

Echoing what Lucas said, Kilominx needs to be a regularly held unofficial event worldwide and have people actually compete in it. That should satisfy the first two items, granted there isn't strong backlash from non-competitors in Kilominx.

I define "puzzle non-triviality" as a puzzle being complex enough to effectively resist:
- easy, short scrambles (like 2x2, Pyraminx, Skewb)
- trivially easy solution methods (like Skewb)
- trivial reducibility to other official events (like L/R teamsolving reducing to OH)
I'm pretty confident Kilominx has satisfied the first and third of these, but I'm not sure about the second one. I didn't foresee that Skewb would become a sledging tps fest, and I wouldn't want that to happen again.

A random-state scrambler program would be an interesting development, but what would the notation be? Kit mentioned on reddit that he thinks Kilominx wouldn't be one of the few puzzles where incorrect scrambles don't matter, and I agree.


What the actual
Click to expand...
As for triviality, the Kilominx has six orders of magnitude more permutations than the 3x3. Nuff said.

e: Exact number:
47127804284843793358848000
(47 septillion, 1.09 million times that of a 3x3)
 
JustinTimeCuber said:
I didn't say that we should use random moves (or worse, the R++ D++ thing) for kilominx, but that there won't be as many "lolscrambles" as on events like 2x2, pyra, and skewb.
Click to expand...

I think you're missing the point on triviality. What will methods for this puzzle look like once developed? Skewb was method-rich when it started in 2014, and many believed you would need to know many methods to be fast, like Pyraminx is now. Turns out just Sarah Advanced and spamming TPS is the sole thing you need to do to be fast, and other methods fell by the wayside. This kind of trivialized the puzzle. I think that after Skewb, people will want to see Kilo being pushed to the point where we know what the best methods are before making it official, and will want to know if those methods are interesting or not.
 
Kit Clement said:
I think you're missing the point on triviality. What will methods for this puzzle look like once developed? Skewb was method-rich when it started in 2014, and many believed you would need to know many methods to be fast, like Pyraminx is now. Turns out just Sarah Advanced and spamming TPS is the sole thing you need to do to be fast, and other methods fell by the wayside. This kind of trivialized the puzzle. I think that after Skewb, people will want to see Kilo being pushed to the point where we know what the best methods are before making it official, and will want to know if those methods are interesting or not.
Click to expand...
The vast majority of advanced 3x3 solvers use CFOP. The vast majority of advanced big cube solvers use centers-first reduction. The vast majority of advanced megaminx solvers solve S2L in one way or another. Just because most people use mostly the same method for a puzzle doesn't make it bad. It just makes that method good. That doesn't mean that other good methods don't exist. Roux imo is just as good as CFOP.

100% of my 3x3 solves are done using CFOP, so, since by that logic, my 3x3 solves are trivial, I shouldn't solve 3x3.
A common method is just that- a common method. It isn't evil. Being fast at an event takes practice, whether or not you use the "normal" method. Go talk to Lucas about how his 1.51 2x2 average took no skill, because 2x2 is trivial. If someone made full CLL for Kilominx, people would learn it, and it would be the superior LL method for the puzzle.

I want someone to tell me with a straight face that this is any worse than a 3x3 solve with a PLL skip when it comes to being "trivial".
 
JustinTimeCuber said:
The vast majority of advanced 3x3 solvers use CFOP. The vast majority of advanced big cube solvers use centers-first reduction. The vast majority of advanced megaminx solvers solve S2L in one way or another. Just because most people use mostly the same method for a puzzle doesn't make it bad. It just makes that method good. That doesn't mean that other good methods don't exist. Roux imo is just as good as CFOP.

100% of my 3x3 solves are done using CFOP, so, since by that logic, my 3x3 solves are trivial, I shouldn't solve 3x3.
A common method is just that- a common method. It isn't evil. Being fast at an event takes practice, whether or not you use the "normal" method. Go talk to Lucas about how his 1.51 2x2 average took no skill, because 2x2 is trivial. If someone made full CLL for Kilominx, people would learn it, and it would be the superior LL method for the puzzle.

I want someone to tell me with a straight face that this is any worse than a 3x3 solve with a PLL skip when it comes to being "trivial".
Click to expand...

*puts on straight face*
Kilominx is more trivial than 3x3.
 
JustinTimeCuber said:
The vast majority of advanced 3x3 solvers use CFOP. The vast majority of advanced big cube solvers use centers-first reduction. The vast majority of advanced megaminx solvers solve S2L in one way or another. Just because most people use mostly the same method for a puzzle doesn't make it bad. It just makes that method good. That doesn't mean that other good methods don't exist. Roux imo is just as good as CFOP.

100% of my 3x3 solves are done using CFOP, so, since by that logic, my 3x3 solves are trivial, I shouldn't solve 3x3.
A common method is just that- a common method. It isn't evil. Being fast at an event takes practice, whether or not you use the "normal" method. Go talk to Lucas about how his 1.51 2x2 average took no skill, because 2x2 is trivial. If someone made full CLL for Kilominx, people would learn it, and it would be the superior LL method for the puzzle.

I want someone to tell me with a straight face that this is any worse than a 3x3 solve with a PLL skip when it comes to being "trivial".
Click to expand...

Even if you use the same method for 3x3 every solve, there are still a lot of choices you have to make, solving the cross, choosing which F2L pairs to solve first and how depending on all the other pieces of the cube, etc. On 2x2, if you know full EG you can basically plan out an almost optimal solve during inspection so I think it is arguably less interesting than 3x3. Having said that, it still takes a lot of skill and practice to be fast at smaller puzzles such as 2x2 and Skewb.

Personally, I think that if the WCA were to introduce a new event, it'd be better to add something different than just a smaller version of an existing event.
 
Chree said:
*puts on straight face*
Kilominx is more trivial than 3x3.
Click to expand...
How so? Kilominx may not have edges, but more of the solve is blockbuilding which in my mind is less trivial than algorithms. You're comparing apples to oranges. Even if it were more trivial than 3x3, does that mean we should remove every event deemed as more trivial than 3x3?
turtwig said:
Even if you use the same method for 3x3 every solve, there are still a lot of choices you have to make, solving the cross, choosing which F2L pairs to solve first and how depending on all the other pieces of the cube, etc. On 2x2, if you know full EG you can basically plan out an almost optimal solve during inspection so I think it is arguably less interesting than 3x3. Having said that, it still takes a lot of skill and practice to be fast at smaller puzzles such as 2x2 and Skewb.
Click to expand...
Replace the words.
Even if you use the same method for Kilominx every solve, there are still a lot of choices you have to make, solving the first layer, choosing which sides to solve and in what order depending on all the other pieces of the dodecahedron, etc.
I just quoted you and replaced a few short phrases.
turtwig said:
Personally, I think that if the WCA were to introduce a new event, it'd be better to add something different than just a smaller version of an existing event.
Click to expand...
Never said they shouldn't. I think 2x3x3 would make a nice addition too because it's a quick event that doesn't take a crazy amount of skill to do, unlike other proposals *ahem* 6BLD. However, being similar to megaminx and 2x2 shouldn't disqualify it. Another event is similar to Megaminx and 2x2 in the opposite ways... and it's the most common event to be held.

I need to correct a previous incorrect statement I made. There are not 47 septillion permutations of a Kilominx but rather 23563902142421896679424000, or 24 septillion. This does not effect the validity of my argument.
 
JustinTimeCuber said:
How so? Kilominx may not have edges, but more of the solve is blockbuilding which in my mind is less trivial than algorithms. You're comparing apples to oranges. Even if it were more trivial than 3x3, does that mean we should remove every event deemed as more trivial than 3x3?
Click to expand...

I actually think it'd be a cool event to add. But you wanted someone to tell you that it's more trivial than 3x3, and I'm happy to oblige. Gotta say tho... asking us to compare apples to oranges and then complaining that I compared apples to oranges is confusing.

Either way... I think what Kit and others are was getting at: It's important to wait and see how the community supports a puzzle that ISN'T official first. So far there's not a whole lot of discussion around developing methods, puzzle modding, and other things that indicate people really care about a puzzle... at least not that I've seen. Just a few fast people posting videos of their LL skips... which, btw, are far more abundant on the apples than on the oranges. Just sayin'.

As much as I'd love to see Kilominx as an event, I know it's gonna be a while before that even has a realistic chance of happening. Let's not skip steps here. There's absolutely growing interest in the puzzle, and that's awesome. So now we can watch to see how things progress. Let Kilominx prove itself to both the community and the WCA. Just be patient.
 
Chree said:
I actually think it'd be a cool event to add. But you wanted someone to tell you that it's more trivial than 3x3, and I'm happy to oblige. Gotta say tho... asking us to compare apples to oranges and then complaining that I compared apples to oranges is confusing.
Click to expand...

Exactly. You can't directly compare 3x3 and Kilominx methods because they are for a different puzzle.

Chree said:
Either way... I think what Kit and others are was getting at: It's important to wait and see how the community supports a puzzle that ISN'T official first. So far there's not a whole lot of discussion around developing methods, puzzle modding, and other things that indicate people really care about a puzzle... at least not that I've seen. Just a few fast people posting videos of their LL skips... which, btw, are far more abundant on the apples than on the oranges. Just sayin'.
Click to expand...

It's only been released for a few weeks. Unofficial events don't tend to get as much attention just because of the fact that they are unofficial.

Chree said:
As much as I'd love to see Kilominx as an event, I know it's gonna be a while before that even has a realistic chance of happening. Let's not skip steps here. There's absolutely growing interest in the puzzle, and that's awesome. So now we can watch to see how things progress. Let Kilominx prove itself to both the community and the WCA. Just be patient.
Click to expand...

Of course. I didn't say we should make it an event tomorrow night.
 
Kit Clement said:
2-day competitions will fix this? Nationals barely gets through all the events now as a 3-day competition, and people complained about us cutting rounds this year.
Click to expand...
I mean in this case, comps that aren't something like Nats/Champs could be 2 day if the amount of events are overwhelmed.

Ranzha said:
- Regulation implementation (event formats, scrambling orientation, misalignment penalties, etc.)
Click to expand...
We're working on that
 
I don't have any say in this, but if I did, I'd want to be convinced that people are going to be interested in Kilominx for more than a few weeks. If we added a new event every time that a new puzzle came out and a bunch of people bought them, we'd end up getting rid of a lot of events as people lost interest in them.

If 6 months from now people still like Kilominx, then I might support this.

Regulations should be easy, since we already have megaminx. Writing a scrambler is a fair bit of work, though.
 
Hey, Justin? I think you're getting too worked up for your own good.

You cannot argue that 3x3 is trivial because of the same reason Skewb has been trivialised. I simply cannot fathom why someone would compare a simple, easy, spammable method like Sarah Intermediate/Advanced (note: 2 four-move algs that are inverses) to CFOP. It's absolutely ridiculous.
Skewb is significantly more trivial than 3x3 in terms of number of states, God's Number, and the near-optimality and quick learning curve of the most common methods.

Sure, Kilominx has a million times the number of states for 3x3. But, since you got pretty concerned with LL:
- Kilominx LL states: 1944. 3x3 LL states: 15552.
- Kilominx OLL is 8.5 moves on average, where 3x3 OLL is 9.7.
- Kilominx OLL has 16 unsolved cases, where 3x3 OLL has 57.
- Kilominx OLL skip probability: 1/81. 3x3 OLL skip probability: 1/216.
- Kilominx PLL is 8.2 moves on average, where 3x3 PLL is 11.8.
- Kilominx PLL has 3 unsolved cases, where 3x3 PLL has 21.
- Kilominx PLL skip probability: 1/12. 3x3 PLL skip probability: 1/72.
You ask us to compare events' triviality and then argue it's "apples and oranges". That makes you look like an idiot.

JustinTimeCuber said:
Another event is similar to Megaminx and 2x2 in the opposite ways... and it's the most common event to be held.
Click to expand...
Yeah, it was the original puzzle. Try again.

JustinTimeCuber said:
It's only been released for a few weeks. Unofficial events don't tend to get as much attention just because of the fact that they are unofficial.
Click to expand...
Then the obvious first step for all pro-Kilominx solvers is to push competition organisers to hold it unofficially. If it gets to be popular enough in the global competition scene, then the first two items on my above list are satisfied.
Additionally, develop more methods for Kilominx! So far, I'm just seeing Megaminx-style solving.

Solar said:
We're working on that
Click to expand...
This is literally the easiest part of it all for Kilominx. It's a matter of altering five regulations.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

J
  • Poll Poll
[Canceled until more people] Gan Smartcube Online Comp @ 6PM EST - CubeStation & Challonge
2
Replies
26
Views
2,828
jmbjr4
J
V
canceled
Replies
7
Views
1,042
F'prime
F'prime
V
This competition has been canceled
2
Replies
39
Views
3,915
VincentCuber
V
eyeballboi
When your competition is canceled
Replies
11
Views
1,343
eyeballboi
eyeballboi
CornerCutter
Was your competition canceled because of the Coronavirus?
2 3 4
Replies
70
Views
10,659
Flowkap
Flowkap
Back
Top