[WCA Regulations 2012] Removal of Magic and Mastermagic

Muesli said:

Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.

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It kind of is actually, in mindset anyway.

EDIT: Apparently there was some confusion. I'm saying that you shouldn't put wheelchair ramps ON the track so that they can compete. And I'm comparing doing that to having magics

mitch1234 said:

...The only people that don't like Magic are the people who just aren't good at it...

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Plenty to be said about magics, but first this. Among those opposed to magics as official events are THE Bob Burton, former world record holder, and Yuxuan Wang, current world record holder.

1976 competitors in Magic during 2011 (up to Dec. 12th)
http://worldcubeassociation.org/res...ears=only+2011&show=All+Persons&single=Single

898 competitors in Master Magic during 2011 (up to Dec. 12th)
http://worldcubeassociation.org/res...ears=only+2011&show=All+Persons&single=Single

It seems strange to me to remove a very popular event that is not hindering the organizers to any real extent (not like the old style multiBLD hindered organizers).

If there are any organizers who say that they feel strongly that Magic and Master Magic should be removed, then I would take this as strong evidence that the event should be removed. I don't think the votes either for or against the removal of these events that come from competitors should be given as much weight as the votes from Organizers. If Ron, or Tyson, or Tim, or Bob, or others who help organize very large scale competitions feel that it is for the greater good to remove these events, then I feel we may want to consider their removal at that point.

On a side note, I don't like all this talk of "remove event X" lately. It seems that events now will become popularity contests in the future. Should we even practice newer events (or events on the chopping block so to speak) since they may likely be removed in the very near future?

Muesli said:

Because they're going to come along anyway to spectate. It's like not putting up wheelchair ramps at a running event.

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Nah, it's like not putting wheelchair ramps going up to the 100m track.

Kirjava said:

http://speedcubing.com/results/

Maybe the WCA could even start an 'unofficial' section.

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Putting them in a different section would completely defeat the purpose of making them feel connected to and part of the experience.

kinch2002 said:

If they're not bothered to learn real cubes, then why cater for them at an official speedcubing event?

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JustinJ said:

It should be considered that a lot of cubers have no choice but to get their parents to bring them to a competition, and if that entire process is going to be filled with a complaining younger sibling, it's much less likely to happen.

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Perhaps you see it as catering to the non cubers, but my point is that it's useful to those who need their parents to drive them as well.

cmhardw said:

On a side note, I don't like all this talk of "remove event X" lately. It seems that events now will become popularity contests in the future. Should we even practice newer events (or events on the chopping block so to speak) since they may likely be removed in the very near future?

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Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.

No need to worry.

JustinJ said:

Putting them in a different section would completely defeat the purpose of making them feel connected to and part of the experience.

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They're not connected to the experience. They're not part of the experience. They're not solving.

Kirjava said:

Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.

No need to worry.

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Someone needs to start a joke 3x3 removal petition as a commentary on this debate.

Kirjava said:

Magic is the only event coming close to being removed, and that is probably not going to happen.

No need to worry.

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Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?

mitch1234 said:

Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?

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I assume most regulations suggested are not going to happen.

I discuss the ones I care about in the hope that some of them may go through

Specs112 said:

They're not connected to the experience. They're not part of the experience. They're not solving.

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Did you read anything I wrote before this? The point is that they feel connected, not that they are by some definition you come up with.

mitch1234 said:

Since it is probably not going to happen then what was the purpose of this thread?

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To spread the good word.

Also, thanks Chris H for a post that has some good points in it

JustinJ said:

Did you read anything I wrote before this?

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Yes, and I disagreed with the majority of it.

Idea!

01:30 <+Kirjava> you know what would be ****ing awesome
01:30 <+Kirjava> is that if we rotated what event magic was every year
01:30 <+Kirjava> this year it's magic
01:31 <+Kirjava> next year it's ball in a cup
01:31 <+Kirjava> year after that it's snake
01:31 <+Kirjava> etc
01:31 < muesli_> **** snake.
01:31 < JustinJ> Kirjava: I would like that a lot actually
01:31 < muesli_> 360!
01:31 < JustinJ> as long as it's something accessible
01:31 <+Kirjava> yeah, year after that it could be 360
01:31 < kinch2002> orgy
01:31 < kinch2002> very accessible
01:31 <+Kirjava> exactly.

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Specs112 said:

Yes, and I disagreed with the majority of it.

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I think he meant your previous post was irrelevant to the point he was trying to make. Like, you disagreed with the majority of something you misunderstood.

Some interesting ideas I just had...

- I think some people see the debate as between "Magic is dumb, so it shouldn't be an event" and "Magic is not dumb". But this isn't the case. It's a debate between "Magic is dumb, so it shouldn't be an event" and "Magic is dumb, but people enjoy it, so it should be an event".

- teller said that if Magic wasn't an event now then it wouldn't be added. I think it's reasonable to say the same thing about Clock. Without that event, all WCA event puzzles (except Magics) would be twisty puzzles, and I think people would see Clock as some random other puzzle that doesn't belong in speedcubing, like how we see other Rubik creations now.

- I agree Magic is not particularly dignified. Neither is feetsolving. And so, if a competition organizer wants to hold an especially dignified competition (that is, a competition that people will respect), they are free to specifically not hold Magic and feetsolving events. It's similar to how, if an organizer wants to hold an especially fast-paced competition, they are free to specifically not hold BLD events or bigcubes. I think it's good for people to have this option, because there will always be competitors who just want to have fun and record official times, and don't care about whether they are being dignified or fast-paced.

qqwref said:

And so, if a competition organizer wants to hold an especially dignified competition (that is, a competition that people will respect), they are free to specifically not hold Magic and feetsolving events.

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Not possible at Worlds, which is the competition we wish to be the most respected.

Kirjava said:

Is anyone strongly against removing these events? If so, why?

It should be obvious why these events should be removed.

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ugh. I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed. Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.

EDIT: If you do not like the event, then don't compete in it. simple. don't ruin the experience for everyone else.

Kirjava said:

Not possible at Worlds, which is the competition we wish to be the most respected.

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If the older and more skilled members of the cubing community see Magic as a pretty silly event, I don't see any reason to crown a World Champion in it (unless someone, e.g. Seventowns, pays for prize money for it, of course). The Magic winner of a major championship is often just someone moderately fast who got lucky and didn't mess up, anyway...

cityzach said:

but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too.

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No you don't

cityzach said:

ugh. I really don't understand why everybody think's these events should be removed. Yea, obviously its easy, and you are doing the same thing every time, but you do the same thing every time on cubic puzzles too. And skill is required to get FAST times. Just please do not remove them.

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Zach and I are both in the same boat, the event is not hurting anyone, it does not cause major amounts of stress to run, and there are people who care about the event. It is like making a thread about 5BLD being removed because not enough people do it, that small group of people surely likes the event and doesn't want to see it go.