# [Help Thread]Waterman Discussion

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Because I want to use Waterman in its purest form to find out its potential. so why won't some algs work while some work?

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
After some discussions with efattah i learned the LMCF algs and now with some practice my pb with Waterman are 23 Secs. It took not long to achieve this. I know now all one last redge + orient midges after I can recall them fast enough I will learn inserting two redges from watermans doc then CLL

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Practiced a bit and got a 26.35 Avg5 with only the rudimentary Alg set. One solve was 20.34 secs.

My question is now: what Start is better? Corners first or 3 cross pieces and then corners? With the last i am faster than the others. And is it useful to learn the Algset which inserts two redges at once?

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
Practiced a bit and got a 26.35 Avg5 with only the rudimentary Alg set. One solve was 20.34 secs.

My question is now: what Start is better? Corners first or 3 cross pieces and then corners? With the last i am faster than the others. And is it useful to learn the Algset which inserts two redges at once?
Neither, just do straight blockbuilding. And don't learn that set right now.
Also great work!

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Ok I will do blockbuilding. And why shouldnt I learn the Set? To speed up in more essential things?

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
Ok I will do blockbuilding. And why shouldnt I learn the Set? To speed up in more essential things?
Yes, Maybe later, when you're sub-20, but not now.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
But am I able to achieve sub-20 without full CLL? I do it with 2Look CLL. And I calculated thr averagr STM something between 55 and 70

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
But am I able to achieve sub-20 without full CLL? I do it with 2Look CLL. And I calculated thr averagr STM something between 55 and 70
CLL is much more important then 2 redges at once.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Ok so now I should learn Blockbuilding the first layer + Watermans CLL and maybe color neutrality?

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
Ok so now I should learn Blockbuilding the first layer + Watermans CLL and maybe color neutrality?
Yes, definitely colour neutrality.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
So my plan for the coming weeks is learning CLL from Waterman and blockbuilding first layer. are there any good tutorials on blockbuilding first layer? There are everywhere tutorials for 2x2x2 blocks, roux blocks and others. but I need a roux block + 2 corners and maybe there are tutorials on this situation out there ?

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
So my plan for the coming weeks is learning CLL from Waterman and blockbuilding first layer. are there any good tutorials on blockbuilding first layer? There are everywhere tutorials for 2x2x2 blocks, roux blocks and others. but I need a roux block + 2 corners and maybe there are tutorials on this situation out there ?
Use roux block tutorials, then add on the two corners AFTER. There are no tutorials, but just make a roux lock then add two corners.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Ok seems good. I do it normally by adding a corner + edge and another edge to make a square, then I add another pair do achieve my roux block and then I add the corners. Seems straight forward.

I also thought someone should point out pros and cons to the beginner speedsolving method thread so that people can choose maybe Waterman

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Just a random question: why is watermans corners first start for the first face not good? I mean I can onelook the corners first solution in inspection and edges are done in pair + one edge if needed...
This is if practiced the best solution and CLL can already be predicted while doing edges of the first layer if you hold the FL on D. Opinions on that?
Because I focus at the moment on first layer & CLL

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
Just a random question: why is watermans corners first start for the first face not good? I mean I can onelook the corners first solution in inspection and edges are done in pair + one edge if needed...
This is if practiced the best solution and CLL can already be predicted while doing edges of the first layer if you hold the FL on D. Opinions on that?
Because I focus at the moment on first layer & CLL
It's faster to solve two kinds of pieces at once then to solve them seperately. If you get an easy corner situation, corners first is faster, but generally, blockbuilding is better.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
I tested Corners First and it is a lot faster and with some Edge insertion tricks the first layer is really fast and you can do it in under 10 Moves also the start position can everywhere becausd you can alig the centers with a corner directly. Or am I wrong?
@efattah you are an expert what is your opinion?

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
So this my ao5 tpday with Waterman but not CLL only 2 Look atm i am faster with 2look.

My ao5 is about 25 secs. I improved a lot. All times are atm sub-30

#### WarriorCatCuber

##### Member
So this my ao5 tpday with Waterman but not CLL only 2 Look atm i am faster with 2look.
View attachment 11760

My ao5 is about 25 secs. I improved a lot. All times are atm sub-30
Really nice! Waterman himself's only comp ao5 was about 23.

#### Chris_Cube

##### Member
Just some Updates I have atm a stable 24 sec ao5 and first layer needs 6 secs atm. However i practice Watermans method for the 4x4 which is really brilliant

#### efattah

##### Member
As has already been stated, solving the first face as blockbuilding is much more efficient than solving it corners first then inserting edges. This is especially true if you are color neutral in which case you can find ready made blocks on most solves.
I still strongly believe if people want to develop the Waterman method, someone needs to generate the two sets that I would call WCLL and WEG1, which are waterman versions of CLL and EG1 that keep the back DB block intact and either solve the top corners, or the top corners and swap the DFL and DFR corners (WEG1). About 65% of the LMCF CLL and EG1 algorithms can be used as a starting point, but around a third of them don't satisfy the constraint of maintaining the back DB block and would need to be regenerated.
In fact, WLCLL and WLEG1 would be better (solving the first face + corners on the left face), that would require a totally new algorithm set, BUT, has the advantage of not only a rotationless solve, but you can totally clone Roux First-Block finger tricks and methods to build the first block because it is on the L face instead of D.
I would say that the rotationless waterman method that uses WLCLL and WLEG1 would be speed equivalent to Roux, in my opinion.

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