Older cubers discussions

[SpartanSailor]

It's been sitting in a draw unsolved since X-Mas 2016 but my Square-1 is finally back to the solved state.

I have to say that overall it was probably more frustrating than fun figuring out my own method but I'm glad that I persevered.

I've done it more than once so I think I can say that I really do have a method!

View attachment 9278 View attachment 9279

Well done. Meanwhile...mine remains untouched. I did just “look” at it. I can verify that it hasn’t magically solved itself.

 

[Old Tom]

I'd recommend you also post the scramble you are solving, that way it is easier to give suggestions, especially for the cross.

Solving the cross one edge at a time is very slow. Solving them into the slot where they are supposed to end up is even slower. Remember that you can move around the D layer to bring the slot to the piece, instead of always bringing the piece to the slot. For example, when you had red and orange solved, you had both green and blue badly oriented at the bottom. They are supposed to go opposite to each other. At 1:41 in the video, with green cross edge facing towards you, you could have lifted both green and blue to opposite sides with F and B, then do a D move to put bottom layer in correct position relative to blue and green, insert blue and green with R and L, then D' to align all edges correctly with the centers.

Here's how I might have solved that cross:

Yellow top, green front:
B R F L F' D' R2

Breaking it down:
B R - solves green cross edge on orange face and moves orange cross piece out of the F layer
F L - solves blue cross edge opposite to green cross piece
F' - solves red cross edge into correct slot in relation to green and blue
D' - moves green, red and blue into their correct positions
R2 - solves orange cross edge

First F2L pair, you don't need to bring the slot to the piece like that. With orange facing towards you, you can align the pieces correctly in relation to each other immediately with R' U R (like you do later), then do a U2 to move corner to the slot where it is supposed to go and insert into back left with L U L'. Inserting into the back slots should always be preferred, because that helps look ahead. The solved corner is immediately out of the way at the back and you have more unsolved pieces in front of you instead of at the back of the cube.

Second F2L pair, note that you could pair them up immediately with a U move. Then L' U L to move them together out of the L layer, rotate cube 90 degrees clockwise and again insert into back slot with L U2 L'.

3rd F2L pair, 5:30, it is no problem to hide the corner piece when taking out the edge. Any piece you hide will be brought back to the U layer when you fix the cross. R' U' R hides corner, takes out edge, then brings corner back to U layer.

5:54, you have green and orange already paired up, could be inserted immediately with L' U L. Obviously this changes the blue orange case, but that's no problem. It actually sets up another easy 2 gen case, R U2 R' U2 R U' R'. Later, at 6:00, when you have paired up orange and blue, green and orange are in correct position to immediately be solved with L' U' L, without breaking up the blue orange corner. This is basically look what look ahead is about. Once you get used to performing the moves you are doing, you should be looking for the last pair, in this case green/orange, while solving blue/orange. Then you can notice shortcuts like this. But no worries, I know it can take a while to get there.

Edit: I should add that you have clearly understood the instructions correctly and are doing everything right according to the introduction videos. No problem there. My comments were mainly about how to take it to the next level.

Jan, your comments on the video by @40yearstosolve have helped me also, even though I've not seen his video yet. Particularly the concept of solving into a back slot, so as to assist look-ahead. I have never done that or even thought anout it. Now will definitely have to move away from F moves, something you commented on earlier, and not just to make turning easier. I have already started throwing in a Y rotation, and now have some sequences that are all LUs (for this lefty).

 

[muchacho]

Trying to catch Logiqx now that he has been distracted by Square-1... don't stop now

OH PBs:
Ao12: 23.093 (was 23.322)
Mo100: 24.999 (25.320)
Ao100: 24.885 (25.230)

Also I've learned 3 CMLL OH algs, for a total of 18 (out of 42).

 

[pglewis]

Do I need to be able to solve F2L pairs without rotating the cube.

Great advice from Jan, as usual. Most of the active oldies here are faster than I am (and the ones who aren't only because they focus more on blindfold or bigger cubes). I read their critiques with an eye towards learning as well, so my reply is mostly just for moral support .

F2L: Your basic understanding of F2L is solid and you'll only get faster with it from here. As I've mentioned before, improving F2L is an ongoing mission for most of us using CFOP still, even as we we approach sub 20, sub 15, and beyond, and evidenced by some of the more advanced/special case F2L tricks we were sharing with one another yesterday. With practice you will encounter some annoying or slow cases repeatedly and you can pick up new tricks as you identify the ones that are holding you back the most. You'll slowly shift from generalizing three cases to more specific solutions to the various cases that present themselves. The important thing is you've got the basics, you've cleared the biggest hurdle IMO.

Cube rotations: Ideally, I think the fastest guys suggest limiting cube rotations during CFOP to maybe 3 or 4 (I'm typically much worse than that). If you rotate to look for pieces then definitely break that habit now and get used to tilting and looking around rather than rotating. For some cases, a rotation sets up a more ergonomic insert or as mentioned might set you up for better lookahead for the remaining slots by putting solved slots in the back. It's worth practicing very very slow solves where you deliberately analyze where everything is, what case you have, and then only rotate when you know exactly what you're doing and it's the right thing to do in the moment. I developed some bad habits with chaotic rotations that continued even when I was well under a minute and I can tell you it can be a hard thing to break when it gets that far. (It is worth noting that ZZ solvers are likely chuckling right now as that method can easily lead to no rotations at all).

Cross: You probably have quite a bit of time to shave off there right now. Comp rules allow up to 15 seconds of inspection time before starting the timer and ideally you want to plan out your full cross solution during that time-- and even the first F2L pair if possible-- and be able to solve the cross in just a few seconds. It's a difficult step to make good tutorials for, there are so many cross cases and the pieces interact in ways that can get very specific. Good first goals would be to memorize your color scheme if you haven't and be able to plan three of the four cross edges during inspection. Knowing the color scheme is vital because you can solve the edges relative to one another, regardless of matching them up with the sides right away, then align them with D/D'/D2 when you're done. Understanding edge orientation helps, at a minimal: which of your cross edges are "good" (oriented) and which are "bad" (misoriented). You can use the moves while solving an oriented edge to simultaneously turn a misoriented edge into an oriented one with a little planning. Last time I did cross drills it showed I'm in the mid 3 second range for solving the cross on average, which is actually probably a little bit slow for my level but I'm lazy about drilling cross since I'm probably only likely to squeeze another second out of it even with a whole lot of work. Don't worry that you're a lot slow than 3 seconds for cross and instead rejoice that it's low hanging fruit.

 

[pglewis]

I've been waiting for a comp with 3x3, 3bld, and mbld ever since I had to bail on the Great Lakes regional, thankfully Michigan 2018 just opened up for registration.

 

[Mike Hughey]

I've been waiting for a comp with 3x3, 3bld, and mbld ever since I had to bail on the Great Lakes regional, thankfully Michigan 2018 just opened up for registration.

Nice! I don't know if I'll be available, but I'll try to make it there if I can.

 

[pglewis]

You'll slowly shift from generalizing three cases to more specific solutions to the various cases that present themselves.

@40yearstosolve: One special case that's very easy to recognize and turns up frequently (I think I saw it at least once in your filmed solve) is when the edge is in the correct slot and solved, corner on top with white facing up. You should know "The Sexy Move" by now: R U R' U'. That sequence got its name because it can be performed really fast with practice (sexy!) and it turns up in a lot of last layer algs as well as during F2L. The "edge solved in-slot / corner with white facing up" case is quickly solved with triple-sexy. Six successive sexy moves will cycle from solved back to solved, so you also set that case up from a solved cube with triple-sexy. We use it by name a lot to describe algs in shorthand without the full move notation, as in: F-sexy-F'.

 

[JanW]

Cross: You probably have quite a bit of time to shave off there right now. Comp rules allow up to 15 seconds of inspection time before starting the timer and ideally you want to plan out your full cross solution during that time-- and even the first F2L pair if possible-- and be able to solve the cross in just a few seconds. It's a difficult step to make good tutorials for, there are so many cross cases and the pieces interact in ways that can get very specific. Good first goals would be to memorize your color scheme if you haven't and be able to plan three of the four cross edges during inspection. Knowing the color scheme is vital because you can solve the edges relative to one another, regardless of matching them up with the sides right away, then align them with D/D'/D2 when you're done. Understanding edge orientation helps, at a minimal: which of your cross edges are "good" (oriented) and which are "bad" (misoriented). You can use the moves while solving an oriented edge to simultaneously turn a misoriented edge into an oriented one with a little planning. Last time I did cross drills it showed I'm in the mid 3 second range for solving the cross on average, which is actually probably a little bit slow for my level but I'm lazy about drilling cross since I'm probably only likely to squeeze another second out of it even with a whole lot of work. Don't worry that you're a lot slow than 3 seconds for cross and instead rejoice that it's low hanging fruit.

This is good advice. Though I'd add that you should not worry about the 15 second inspection time limit yet. When you first start planning full crosses it'll probably take you a minute or several. I know it did for me. I didn't start using timed inspection until I was sub-30. Until then I had taken however much time I needed to plan the cross. And I still had problems doing it in 15 seconds for quite a while.

 

[Old Tom]

This is good advice. Though I'd add that you should not worry about the 15 second inspection time limit yet. When you first start planning full crosses it'll probably take you a minute or several. I know it did for me. I didn't start using timed inspection until I was sub-30. Until then I had taken however much time I needed to plan the cross. And I still had problems doing it in 15 seconds for quite a while.

All these comments from Jan and @pglewis are terrific for me also. And note to @40yearstosolve: I really do enjoy slow and super-slow solving, thinking about what is happening. I don't memorize algs explicitly, though my fingers are picking many of them up. I never, or almost never, time myself. When I do, just makes me nervous. By contrast, slow is fun and relaxing, but I'm learning also. I have a stack of index cards where I take notes when I have an "Aha!" moment. I do write down the algs in notation then, just so that I have a record for review.

I started taking these notes when I started F2L this April. Reviewing them now, barely three months later, I am amused at how blindingly obvious some of those notes are. No doubt, I will feel the same about this month's notes soon enough. Or, I hope so!

But I saved some very rough and sketchy notes from back in 1981, where I solved the cube using nothing but commutators and conjugates, piece by piece, or at least I think that's what I was doing. I cannot really understand today what I did back then (I soon moved on to more compact methods), but I wonder if it might form the basis of a blind solve?

 

[40yearstosolve]

Great advice from Jan, as usual. Most of the active oldies here are faster than I am (and the ones who aren't only because they focus more on blindfold or bigger cubes). I read their critiques with an eye towards learning as well, so my reply is mostly just for moral support .

F2L: Your basic understanding of F2L is solid and you'll only get faster with it from here. As I've mentioned before, improving F2L is an ongoing mission for most of us using CFOP still, even as we we approach sub 20, sub 15, and beyond, and evidenced by some of the more advanced/special case F2L tricks we were sharing with one another yesterday. With practice you will encounter some annoying or slow cases repeatedly and you can pick up new tricks as you identify the ones that are holding you back the most. You'll slowly shift from generalizing three cases to more specific solutions to the various cases that present themselves. The important thing is you've got the basics, you've cleared the biggest hurdle IMO.

Cube rotations: Ideally, I think the fastest guys suggest limiting cube rotations during CFOP to maybe 3 or 4 (I'm typically much worse than that). If you rotate to look for pieces then definitely break that habit now and get used to tilting and looking around rather than rotating. For some cases, a rotation sets up a more ergonomic insert or as mentioned might set you up for better lookahead for the remaining slots by putting solved slots in the back. It's worth practicing very very slow solves where you deliberately analyze where everything is, what case you have, and then only rotate when you know exactly what you're doing and it's the right thing to do in the moment. I developed some bad habits with chaotic rotations that continued even when I was well under a minute and I can tell you it can be a hard thing to break when it gets that far. (It is worth noting that ZZ solvers are likely chuckling right now as that method can easily lead to no rotations at all).

Cross: You probably have quite a bit of time to shave off there right now. Comp rules allow up to 15 seconds of inspection time before starting the timer and ideally you want to plan out your full cross solution during that time-- and even the first F2L pair if possible-- and be able to solve the cross in just a few seconds. It's a difficult step to make good tutorials for, there are so many cross cases and the pieces interact in ways that can get very specific. Good first goals would be to memorize your color scheme if you haven't and be able to plan three of the four cross edges during inspection. Knowing the color scheme is vital because you can solve the edges relative to one another, regardless of matching them up with the sides right away, then align them with D/D'/D2 when you're done. Understanding edge orientation helps, at a minimal: which of your cross edges are "good" (oriented) and which are "bad" (misoriented). You can use the moves while solving an oriented edge to simultaneously turn a misoriented edge into an oriented one with a little planning. Last time I did cross drills it showed I'm in the mid 3 second range for solving the cross on average, which is actually probably a little bit slow for my level but I'm lazy about drilling cross since I'm probably only likely to squeeze another second out of it even with a whole lot of work. Don't worry that you're a lot slow than 3 seconds for cross and instead rejoice that it's low hanging fruit.

As always pglewis your critiques are always learning/motivationally focused bravo

As I end this day leaving my cubes downstairs I think I needed that pick-me-up.

More @Old Tom-style chilling, @JanW-style practicality and @pglewis-style zen and I am on course for totally horizontal cubing tomorrow. Slow-mo F2L here I come thanks so much guys, serious gratitude coming your way thank you.

 

[SpartanSailor]

I've been waiting for a comp with 3x3, 3bld, and mbld ever since I had to bail on the Great Lakes regional, thankfully Michigan 2018 just opened up for registration.

I would like to make that one... but 2 things work against that happening. First, I’m a Spartan. So, even if I could manage to show up, I’d be decked out head to toe in MSU gear. But the more legitimate second, it’s a tad too far to drive for the weekend.

I don’t see anything “nearby” that has MBLD on the competition listing. That said, there are always new comps popping up from time to time. I’m hopeful that one of the not-yet-published fall comps has 3BLD and MBLD so I can make an official attempt at MBLD.

 

[40yearstosolve]

All these comments from Jan and @pglewis are terrific for me also. And note to @40yearstosolve: I really do enjoy slow and super-slow solving, thinking about what is happening. I don't memorize algs explicitly, though my fingers are picking many of them up. I never, or almost never, time myself. When I do, just makes me nervous. By contrast, slow is fun and relaxing, but I'm learning also. I have a stack of index cards where I take notes when I have an "Aha!" moment. I do write down the algs in notation then, just so that I have a record for review.

I started taking these notes when I started F2L this April. Reviewing them now, barely three months later, I am amused at how blindingly obvious some of those notes are. No doubt, I will feel the same about this month's notes soon enough. Or, I hope so!

But I saved some very rough and sketchy notes from back in 1981, where I solved the cube using nothing but commutators and conjugates, piece by piece, or at least I think that's what I was doing. I cannot really understand today what I did back then (I soon moved on to more compact methods), but I wonder if it might form the basis of a blind solve?

Haha superb. It’s crazy that you solved it on your own back in the day. I think that sets you apart from people like me that use tutorials. There’s nothing wrong in that of course, but to have the stamina, patience and sheer pigheadedness to solve it in a time when you had to do it alone is seriously impressive.

When I set out to solve the cube I was achieving a goal I had when I was 5.
When I solve it forty years later I did it for my son.
He can now solve it and I can solve it, so I got two goals for the price of one.
Then I wanted sun 2 minutes and I achieved that.
Now I want sub one minute.
And I am indeed getting close to enjoying polishing

 

[Old Tom]

Haha superb. It’s crazy that you solved it on your own back in the day. I think that sets you apart from people like me that use tutorials. There’s nothing wrong in that of course, but to have the stamina, patience and sheer pigheadedness to solve it in a time when you had to do it alone is seriously impressive.

When I set out to solve the cube I was achieving a goal I had when I was 5.
When I solve it forty years later I did it for my son.
He can now solve it and I can solve it, so I got two goals for the price of one.
Then I wanted sun 2 minutes and I achieved that.
Now I want sub one minute.
And I am indeed getting close to enjoying polishing

The key word in all that is "pigheadedness."

 

[Mike Hughey]

Speaking of the virtues of pigheadedness, after my miserable 8/16 multi two weeks ago and 9/16 last week, I finally got to taste some near success with a 14/16 this week. Both failed cubes were very close - both had 2 flipped edges and one also had 2 twisted corners.

 

[Logiqx]

The key word in all that is "pigheadedness."

#sq1withoutguide

 

[pglewis]

I don't memorize algs explicitly, though my fingers are picking many of them up.

Yep, much like learning to play an instrument the muscles just learn to react with practice.

I never, or almost never, time myself. When I do, just makes me nervous.

This is a good philosophy when the timer is stressing you. If you're able to suppress that, it's also good to get used to running the timer so it's second nature and not a stress inducer when you do. Sometimes at home when I feel I'm being pressured by the timer I'll finish a solve and just sit there for 3 more seconds before stopping it as an assertion that I'm the one controlling the solve, not the timer. I continue to pick up new things and go through regressions with my averages. If I'm timing and get a slow solve I ask myself why. If it's because I had to pause to use something that's new in my tool-belt then that's deemed "an acceptable slow solve". New things only get faster if I use them, never if the timer pressures me to bypass them.

But I saved some very rough and sketchy notes from back in 1981, where I solved the cube using nothing but commutators and conjugates, piece by piece, or at least I think that's what I was doing. I cannot really understand today what I did back then (I soon moved on to more compact methods), but I wonder if it might form the basis of a blind solve?

Yes, "3-style" is pretty much THE method for fast 3bld today and execution is primarily pure commutators or commutators + setup moves. "Old Pochmann" is another method that only requires one alg for edges and one for corners (plus a "parity" alg to fix things up when there are an odd number of corners/edges to solve). It has a much lower barrier to entry than building a full commutator list in exchange for requiring a lot more moves during execution.

I don’t see anything “nearby” that has MBLD on the competition listing. That said, there are always new comps popping up from time to time. I’m hopeful that one of the not-yet-published fall comps has 3BLD and MBLD so I can make an official attempt at MBLD.

Seems like it's just buzzing with comps over on the east coast, feels like the heartland and midwest have been really thin this year.

 

[SpartanSailor]

Seems like it's just buzzing with comps over on the east coast, feels like the heartland and midwest have been really thin this year.

There is a group of pretty motivated and very active “young” cubers. By young I mean, 20-ish give or take. College aged and they all host events. The delegates are very active as well. So, if someone wants to host an event... as long as there’s my already one scheduled, the delegates will come be there to make it happen.

I take as much advantage as I can! Lol

I was actually thinking of talking with a couple delegates to discuss and East Coast Blind “Championships” or something. Host all the blind events. All of them. Maybe toss in a regular old 3x3 event too... I wouldn’t expect it to be a huge event, but I think it would get a decent turn out.

 

[Lid]

Beat my 3x3 a12 twice the last week, first 14.65 then today: 14.551 (the 12 was the only skip)
13.523, 13.218, 16.802, 13.472, (DNF), (12.588), 13.885, 13.998, 17.373, 14.473, 14.382, 14.386

Some other PBs the last week:
Sq1 single, 9.251 (-3, 5) / (6, -3) / (1, -2) / (3, -3) / (-1, -1) / (0, -2) / (0, -3) / (-3, 0) / (0, -1) / (-2, 0) / (-1, 0) /
Solution: 0,1/0,3/ | 1,0/ | 0,3/-1,-1/ | 6,-2/0,3/-3,-3/3,0/ | -3,-1/0,-3/1,1/-1,2/3,1, easy but fullstep

4x4 a5: 55.229
1. 56.593 f2 u2 D2 f' R' U2 D2 f2 R' B r' F' r' f R' f B' r F f2 D' F2 r L2 D F2 u2 R D' B L' U' u' B2 R U R' D B2 U
2. (53.220[o]) u' L' u r U r B u2 R U L u' F2 B' u2 D' B2 D' r u F D2 f L2 f L' D f' R D f' u' U2 F2 u' F D2 B F r'
3. (1:08.513[op]) D L R' F D f B' L' f' L B' f2 u2 L' u r' D2 u2 r' U' F2 r2 F' B R' D f2 u2 D f u2 F' L R2 F' u F' D u' r'
4. 55.499 D r L' f' R r2 B' D' U' F2 L r D' L R' D' L D' F' u r2 u2 D' F' B2 R' L' f' U' B' F2 L' B2 R' B2 u' B' u' r2 L2
5. 53.596 u' D' f U' R2 u L' r2 R B f' u r B' u F' B' f2 U' r' U L2 r' U B2 u U R2 f2 U D' B' D' B' R' B' U2 f2 B2 u

 

[SpartanSailor]

Beat my 3x3 a12 twice the last week, first 14.65 then today: 14.551 (the 12 was the only skip)
13.523, 13.218, 16.802, 13.472, (DNF), (12.588), 13.885, 13.998, 17.373, 14.473, 14.382, 14.386

Some other PBs the last week:
Sq1 single, 9.251 (-3, 5) / (6, -3) / (1, -2) / (3, -3) / (-1, -1) / (0, -2) / (0, -3) / (-3, 0) / (0, -1) / (-2, 0) / (-1, 0) /
Solution: 0,1/0,3/ | 1,0/ | 0,3/-1,-1/ | 6,-2/0,3/-3,-3/3,0/ | -3,-1/0,-3/1,1/-1,2/3,1, easy but fullstep

4x4 a5: 55.229
1. 56.593 f2 u2 D2 f' R' U2 D2 f2 R' B r' F' r' f R' f B' r F f2 D' F2 r L2 D F2 u2 R D' B L' U' u' B2 R U R' D B2 U
2. (53.220[o]) u' L' u r U r B u2 R U L u' F2 B' u2 D' B2 D' r u F D2 f L2 f L' D f' R D f' u' U2 F2 u' F D2 B F r'
3. (1:08.513[op]) D L R' F D f B' L' f' L B' f2 u2 L' u r' D2 u2 r' U' F2 r2 F' B R' D f2 u2 D f u2 F' L R2 F' u F' D u' r'
4. 55.499 D r L' f' R r2 B' D' U' F2 L r D' L R' D' L D' F' u r2 u2 D' F' B2 R' L' f' U' B' F2 L' B2 R' B2 u' B' u' r2 L2
5. 53.596 u' D' f U' R2 u L' r2 R B f' u r B' u F' B' f2 U' r' U L2 r' U B2 u U R2 f2 U D' B' D' B' R' B' U2 f2 B2 u

Nicely done. Always feels nice to be in the zone and get a bunch of PBs!

 

[SpartanSailor]

Only 1/5 tonite with 3BLD practice. All were sub-4 and the success was 3:28. I was pushing my memo just a little, but the problem was in tracing more than anything. I forgot a couple twisted corners that I never memo’d (tracing error) and had a couple errors where I twisted the corner the wrong way (memo error). All in all, I’m feel like this was a good practice session. I like to keep them short(er) so I can manage my time. My next comp is in New Jersey at on the 14th. I can’t remember what all I signed up for, but I’m only really interested in 3BLD. This is the last 3BLD comp on the schedule until something is added that I can attend.

Happy cubing, my friends!