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Older cubers discussions

mark49152

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@SpartanSailor: Yes good advice from Jae. Two things I have used to improve my memo speed:-

1) Practise tracing only. Just time how long it takes you to find all the pieces, including cycle breaks, flips and twists, etc. Don't try to memo anything. It's surprising how long this actually takes. Practising it on its own is helpful because you don't tire your memory, and can really focus on tracing faster without being slowed down by memorizing.

2) Rush memo. Set a countdown timer to beep after N seconds. Start memo and when the timer beeps, pull your blindfold down immediately, even if you're not ready. Solve as much of the cube as you can. This is a good way to give yourself a sense of urgency during memo and compel you to work faster.

Anyway, I haven't posted a video for a long time. Here's my MBLD escapades from last weekend.

 

Old Tom

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2018DOYL02
@SpartanSailor: Yes good advice from Jae. Two things I have used to improve my memo speed:-

1) Practise tracing only. Just time how long it takes you to find all the pieces, including cycle breaks, flips and twists, etc. Don't try to memo anything. It's surprising how long this actually takes. Practising it on its own is helpful because you don't tire your memory, and can really focus on tracing faster without being slowed down by memorizing.

2) Rush memo. Set a countdown timer to beep after N seconds. Start memo and when the timer beeps, pull your blindfold down immediately, even if you're not ready. Solve as much of the cube as you can. This is a good way to give yourself a sense of urgency during memo and compel you to work faster.

Anyway, I haven't posted a video for a long time. Here's my MBLD escapades from last weekend.


Ah! But how do I prevent the “sense of urgency” from giving me a bad case of the mental yips? That has been a major problem for me when trying for speed, blind or not. The only approach that is “sort of” working for me is trying to stay calm, not trying to go too fast, staying within my capabilities, while trying to improve those capabilities.

What I’m saying is that a bad case of nerves is my bugaboo.
 

mark49152

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Ah! But how do I prevent the “sense of urgency” from giving me a bad case of the mental yips? That has been a major problem for me when trying for speed, blind or not. The only approach that is “sort of” working for me is trying to stay calm, not trying to go too fast, staying within my capabilities, while trying to improve those capabilities.
You deliberately push yourself outside your comfort zone - that's the whole point. Like many forms of training, "no pain, no gain". It doesn't matter if your accuracy suffers for a while. After some practice that pace won't feel so uncomfortable. Eventually it will feel comfortable... and even slow :).
 

Old Tom

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You deliberately push yourself outside your comfort zone - that's the whole point. Like many forms of training, "no pain, no gain". It doesn't matter if your accuracy suffers for a while. After some practice that pace won't feel so uncomfortable. Eventually it will feel comfortable... and even slow :).
You deliberately push yourself outside your comfort zone - that's the whole point. Like many forms of training, "no pain, no gain". It doesn't matter if your accuracy suffers for a while. After some practice that pace won't feel so uncomfortable. Eventually it will feel comfortable... and even slow :).

That actually makes sense. Thx!
 

mark49152

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That actually makes sense. Thx!
Actually it's crucial, and worth stressing again. In my experience, improvement comes in two phases. In the first phase, you're just becoming competent, so learning a decent method and becoming familiar enough with it and the puzzle so that you can turn at a comfortable rate and not pause too much. This phase eventually reaches a plateau where you are solving competently at a comfortable pace. If you just keep solving over and over at this pace, you're not going to improve much further.

To go beyond that, you need to solve faster, and the only way you can get faster beyond your comfortable pace is to push your pace into the uncomfortable zone.

For BLD memo, the same applies. Our memo settles at a comfortable pace, where we can trace comfortably, visualise comfortably, and review as much as we think is necessary. To learn to memo faster, we need to push one or more of those things to be uncomfortable, rather than repeat over and over within our comfort zone.
 

Old Tom

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G
Actually it's crucial, and worth stressing again. In my experience, improvement comes in two phases. In the first phase, you're just becoming competent, so learning a decent method and becoming familiar enough with it and the puzzle so that you can turn at a comfortable rate and not pause too much. This phase eventually reaches a plateau where you are solving competently at a comfortable pace. If you just keep solving over and over at this pace, you're not going to improve much further.

To go beyond that, you need to solve faster, and the only way you can get faster beyond your comfortable pace is to push your pace into the uncomfortable zone.

For BLD memo, the same applies. Our memo settles at a comfortable pace, where we can trace comfortably, visualise comfortably, and review as much as we think is necessary. To learn to memo faster, we need to push one or more of those things to be uncomfortable, rather than repeat over and over within our comfort zone.

Got it!
 

openseas

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Messages
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2015PARK24
This 4BLD ended up to be the only success of the day:-(

Didn’t do much practice of 4, 5, MBLD, so, not much to complain but attempts were awfully close. 4BLD sub 10 was nice, long over due but will take it.

5BLD was 2 wing cycles off.

MBLD, first ever 3 attempts, and triple DNF.
5/11, 4/11, 5/11. Each attempt had 2 flips, 2 twists, 1 exe error (like R off in the middle) and one reverse comm.
Time was more promising , 1st attempt was 54min, 2nd was faster, when finished 8 cube memo, 20 mins. So, reviewed a lot & finished 51min but again errors here and there. 3 rd one was even faster but I guess my brain was not strong enough to hold all day BLD + 40 BLD sessions in a day.

Most disappointing thing was of course 3BLD triple DNF. All fails were 1:10~1:20 with one cycle off. Well, maybe next comp to join near 1 club or sub 1 club .

Graham had MBLD NAR, 42/42 in 54min.

4F8353F9-8CFC-4F06-8016-6C343F4C11B2.png
 

One Wheel

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This instalment is especially for those of my fellow oldies currently trying to get into 4BLD. Keep at it guys, all the hard work is worth it in the end! ;)

I think I’ve said before that 4BLD is my next big challenge. If we can get a delegate I’m planning on organizing a comp in early February that will include 4BLD. That’s a good incentive. Now I just need to find time to practice.
 

muchacho

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Some (but not much) improvement in OH.

OH Mo100: 24.666 (was 24.839 from last month)
OH Ao100: 24.495 (was 24.579)

17127 Nov 4, 2018 4:55:30 PM 00:20.020 D2 L2 D2 R2 F2 R2 F2 D' B2 L2 U' B D U' L F D' L2 F2 L' F2
17126 Nov 4, 2018 4:54:48 PM 00:22.393 U' F2 D2 R2 D B2 L2 U' R2 U2 B D' R L' U' B' D' R L' B'
17125 Nov 4, 2018 4:54:03 PM 00:21.439 B2 L2 F2 D2 F2 D2 R2 U' R2 D F2 R' B' L2 B' U' B2 F' L' B2 U
17124 Nov 4, 2018 4:53:13 PM 00:24.873 U' R2 U' F2 D' B2 U' F2 U2 L2 U2 B R' F D R L' F R' L2 F' U'
17123 Nov 4, 2018 4:52:30 PM 00:24.565 D F2 L2 U' L2 B2 R2 U2 B2 U' B2 R' B2 F2 L' F D' R' F2 D F'
17122 Nov 4, 2018 4:51:50 PM 00:24.525 U' L2 F2 U2 L2 U' R2 D' F2 L2 U2 B D2 L D2 L B U' B U R'
17121 Nov 4, 2018 4:51:10 PM 00:22.079 F2 U2 R2 U B2 L2 F2 L2 U B2 D' R D U B' R' B2 R' F U' L
17120 Nov 4, 2018 4:50:27 PM 00:25.573 L2 U' R2 U F2 D R2 B2 R2 D U L B R' F' U2 R2 U R2 B2 U2 L'
17119 Nov 4, 2018 4:49:49 PM 00:20.474 U' B2 R2 L2 D' U2 B2 R2 D R2 F B2 R' U2 B F2 R2 B2 U L' U2
17118 Nov 4, 2018 4:49:10 PM 00:19.984 D' L2 F2 D R2 B2 U R2 U2 L2 U' R U B2 R2 L D L B' L2 U2
17117 Nov 4, 2018 4:48:25 PM 00:25.590 F2 D2 B2 U' F2 R2 D' F2 U B2 F2 R' D' L2 U2 B D2 R F' U2 R
17116 Nov 4, 2018 4:47:44 PM 00:23.003 U2 F2 D U2 F2 U R2 B2 R2 U2 L2 B' L' D R' D L' B' U B' D'
17115 Nov 4, 2018 4:47:01 PM 00:23.127 B2 R2 F2 D L2 U' B2 F2 U R2 U R B2 D' B2 D' F D' F D B' D'
17114 Nov 4, 2018 4:46:19 PM 00:19.801 D B2 U' R2 F2 R2 B2 D U2 F R F D2 B' U F D' B' D
17113 Nov 4, 2018 4:44:36 PM 00:21.102 U F2 R2 U' L2 B2 U2 R2 U B2 L' F U' B L U2 L' D B' D' U'
17112 Nov 4, 2018 4:43:50 PM 00:26.732 F2 U2 L2 U' F2 D L2 F2 R2 D2 B2 R F' U2 R2 F2 U B D F U'
17111 Nov 4, 2018 4:43:02 PM 00:30.542 B2 L2 U' F2 U' F2 U2 R2 D B2 U B' L2 U2 B2 R' U' F' L B' L2
17110 Nov 4, 2018 4:41:43 PM 00:24.093 D F2 U2 L2 B2 L2 B2 D B2 U' L F2 U2 B' D2 U' R' B R F'
17109 Nov 4, 2018 4:41:00 PM 00:23.707 D2 L2 D B2 D' B2 L2 B2 U B2 U' R B L' B' D' L' B U F L' U'
17108 Nov 4, 2018 4:40:16 PM 00:24.852 R2 D R2 L2 D2 F2 U' L2 D R2 U B' L' F' U' F' L2 D2 R2 U2 L
17107 Nov 4, 2018 4:39:33 PM 00:24.611 F2 U' R2 U2 B2 D R2 L2 D F2 U' L U L' F' R U2 F' D2 R2 D2
17106 Nov 4, 2018 4:38:50 PM 00:24.189 D' F2 R2 L2 U R2 L2 U L2 D2 U' B' L' D U' B2 R L F' L' B L
17105 Nov 4, 2018 4:38:05 PM 00:27.550 U' B2 L2 U' B2 F2 L2 U B2 D' U B R' B F2 U B2 D' F U2 B2
17104 Nov 4, 2018 4:37:14 PM 00:23.944 U R2 D2 F2 U' B2 U R2 D' R' D2 B' R' F' D U B R F2 L' D2
17103 Nov 4, 2018 4:36:32 PM 00:23.939 F2 D L2 F2 U R2 B2 U R2 D' L D' L2 B2 U R' F' D' F2 R
17102 Nov 4, 2018 4:35:46 PM 00:28.242 D' B2 U' F2 L2 D B2 D F2 R2 L2 F' U' F2 U2 R' L2 B2 U' B2
17101 Nov 4, 2018 4:35:02 PM 00:26.980 L2 F2 D B2 F2 L2 D2 L2 D' B2 D' R' B R' B2 F U' R' D2 B'
17100 Nov 4, 2018 4:34:19 PM 00:24.392 F2 D' F2 D' F2 D2 R2 F2 D B2 L B' R' U' R U2 R2 D U' F U
17099 Nov 4, 2018 4:33:35 PM 00:28.111 F2 R2 L2 D' F2 U L2 D2 R2 L2 U2 R' D2 F U B R D F' R L U2
17098 Nov 4, 2018 4:32:52 PM 00:22.130 D2 B2 R2 U' L2 B2 U' B2 D' R2 D F D B R' L' D R2 F2 L B U'
17097 Nov 4, 2018 4:32:10 PM 00:23.900 D' U' R2 B2 D B2 L2 D' R2 L2 B' R2 F' D' L B R2 B R B U2 F
17096 Nov 4, 2018 4:31:07 PM 00:39.690 R2 L2 D' U L2 D' R2 F2 L2 U L2 F' L2 D R D2 L2 B' L' U' R2 U2
17095 Nov 4, 2018 4:30:22 PM 00:26.453 D R2 D' L2 B2 D2 F2 L2 U' F2 D B R U R2 B R2 L' F2 R D'
17094 Nov 4, 2018 4:29:39 PM 00:25.898 F2 U B2 D2 F2 U F2 L2 U F2 D2 F' U R B F2 D2 R U L2 D'
17093 Nov 4, 2018 4:28:53 PM 00:22.673 F2 D' L2 D' L2 U' L2 U2 R2 B2 U' F L U' F D' U2 L' U2 B D'
17092 Nov 4, 2018 4:28:08 PM 00:27.556 U' L2 U' R2 B2 D2 U2 R2 D B2 U' F U' B' R L2 F' R D' R2 B'
17091 Nov 4, 2018 4:27:22 PM 00:22.526 U' R2 U' F2 U R2 D2 B2 L2 D2 L' D' B F2 U' B2 R' F2 R' L2 U2
17090 Nov 4, 2018 4:26:25 PM 00:27.254 D' B2 R2 F2 U B2 U2 R2 U' F2 U' F R L' D' L2 B' D R F2 L
17089 Nov 4, 2018 4:25:44 PM 00:24.500 L2 U2 B2 F2 R2 U' R2 U' L2 D2 F2 R' U L' D' L2 B' L' D L' F2 U'
17088 Nov 4, 2018 4:24:59 PM 00:23.243 F2 D B2 L2 D F2 D F2 L2 D2 U2 B U L D2 L2 B R L D' F' U
17087 Nov 4, 2018 4:24:16 PM 00:23.866 U B2 D' B2 R2 F2 U2 F2 U' L2 F2 R' B' U' R' F R B D' F L2 U'
17086 Nov 4, 2018 4:23:25 PM 00:33.827 B2 U2 R2 B2 L2 F2 D R2 U B2 D R' B U' F2 L B2 D' B F R2 U'
17085 Nov 4, 2018 4:22:40 PM 00:22.935 R2 D' U' B2 U2 F2 L2 D' B2 F2 U' B' U' R D' L' B' L' F U2 B2 U'
17084 Nov 4, 2018 4:22:07 PM 00:19.082 U R2 B2 L2 U L2 F2 U' R2 U2 L2 B' U L2 B D2 R B D B' U
17083 Nov 4, 2018 4:20:47 PM 00:20.510 D' F2 U B2 R2 U' F2 U' B2 D B L' U R' D' B' R L' F' L' U'
17082 Nov 4, 2018 4:20:13 PM 00:19.066 B2 F2 D' R2 U B2 R2 U B2 D' B R' B D B U L2 U R L2 U'
17081 Nov 4, 2018 4:19:27 PM 00:27.896 U' B2 F2 L2 F2 D' B2 R2 U B2 U2 R B U R B' F' R B D2 F
17080 Nov 4, 2018 4:18:44 PM 00:26.543 D2 B2 R2 D2 U' R2 L2 U' R2 L2 F2 R B' R B' L' D2 U2 R' U2 B
17079 Nov 4, 2018 4:18:01 PM 00:23.106 B2 D R2 B2 U2 L2 B2 D R2 F2 R2 F' R D L2 B' L' D' F' R' D' U'
17078 Nov 4, 2018 4:17:13 PM 00:27.201 U R2 B2 U2 L2 D' R2 U' R2 B2 D' F B2 D2 B2 R' F D' U' L B D
17077 Nov 4, 2018 4:16:28 PM 00:21.914 D2 U R2 F2 D' B2 U L2 B2 F2 L' B2 D' R U B' R2 L' D' B2 D
17076 Nov 4, 2018 4:15:52 PM 00:22.276 U2 B2 F2 U' L2 D' R2 U2 B2 F2 U' L D2 B U L2 U' R U F' L' D'
17075 Nov 4, 2018 4:15:03 PM 00:29.520 B2 D' L2 B2 U2 F2 L2 D' B2 U2 F2 L F' L U2 B R' L' B' U L2 U
17074 Nov 4, 2018 4:14:18 PM 00:21.228 B2 U2 L2 D U2 F2 R2 L2 U2 R2 F2 R' D' B F' L2 B2 L D2 B R2
17073 Nov 4, 2018 4:13:33 PM 00:26.325 D U2 F2 R2 D2 U L2 B2 L2 F2 D' F' U F' L B' D U2 F R' F U2
17072 Nov 4, 2018 4:12:53 PM 00:19.133 R2 B2 U L2 U R2 U L2 U' L2 U' B R D2 L' U F' D L2 D R' U2
17071 Nov 4, 2018 4:12:09 PM 00:25.752 B2 D' F2 L2 U2 F2 L2 U F2 D' U' B' F2 D F' U L B2 R' U' L' U2
17070 Nov 4, 2018 4:11:26 PM 00:21.498 L2 D' L2 U F2 D2 B2 R2 B2 D' L2 F R U' F2 L D' F' U R2 F2
17069 Nov 4, 2018 4:10:39 PM 00:29.158 B2 D F2 L2 D F2 U L2 U2 F2 U' R' D2 B' F R D R2 B D U R2
17068 Nov 4, 2018 4:10:01 PM 00:20.001 R2 D F2 U' F2 D2 L2 D2 U L2 U' R' D B F L' U' B' R' B2 F' D'
17067 Nov 4, 2018 4:09:20 PM 00:21.201 F2 U' R2 D F2 U2 L2 F2 U' R2 B' D B U2 R' F' D' L U' L2
17066 Nov 4, 2018 4:08:36 PM 00:26.558 U R2 U' B2 F2 D' R2 U F2 R2 U' F' R D2 L D2 L B' F D R' U'
17065 Nov 4, 2018 4:07:57 PM 00:19.251 R2 D' B2 D' R2 D2 L2 D2 B2 R2 U L U2 F' D L2 F2 R2 F2 R' B'
17064 Nov 4, 2018 3:59:16 PM 00:23.389 D B2 R2 U R2 F2 R2 D2 F2 U B2 R U' R2 D' L2 F D2 F U'
17063 Nov 4, 2018 3:58:31 PM 00:24.385 U2 F2 D' F2 U' L2 D' B2 L2 B2 D' R' B U2 F' R' L' U' B' F2 L2 U
17062 Nov 4, 2018 3:57:44 PM 00:28.767 L2 D F2 L2 B2 U2 R2 D2 L2 U' B2 L' F' R' D' R2 F R2 L2 U' R'
17061 Nov 4, 2018 3:56:53 PM 00:23.358 R2 U' L2 U F2 D U2 L2 B2 U L D R' B R U2 F R U R'
17060 Nov 4, 2018 3:56:01 PM 00:22.875 F2 U L2 D R2 D2 L2 D' B2 D' R2 B D2 U F D F L2 B F' U'
17059 Nov 4, 2018 3:55:08 PM 00:25.909 D2 B2 R2 U' B2 U' L2 U2 R2 L2 U' B R' B U' F2 D' U' F' R
17058 Nov 4, 2018 3:54:04 PM 00:21.609 L2 F2 D L2 F2 U2 L2 F2 D L2 D R' U R' F' L2 B' U2 R' B2
17057 Nov 4, 2018 3:52:56 PM 00:24.837 F2 R2 D L2 U2 F2 D2 B2 U F2 U' B' D2 U' R' F L' U B' F2 R' L2
17056 Nov 4, 2018 3:51:59 PM 00:25.025 B2 F2 D' F2 D2 B2 U R2 D' B2 D R' F U2 L' F2 D U' B' D U2
17055 Nov 4, 2018 3:51:11 PM 00:24.981 U2 F2 U R2 U2 B2 U L2 F2 U L B' R2 L' D L U' L2 D F U'
17054 Nov 4, 2018 3:50:11 PM 00:36.433 L2 F2 L2 D L2 D' L2 D B2 U' L2 B U B2 F' L B U R2 B D U
17053 Nov 4, 2018 3:49:16 PM 00:22.489 F2 L2 U F2 D2 R2 D' B2 U2 L2 U L' F D B U L2 U' R U' R
17052 Nov 4, 2018 3:48:07 PM 00:25.620 D2 U L2 D F2 D' L2 B2 U2 L2 U2 R' L2 B' F L F2 L2 D' R U' R'
17051 Nov 4, 2018 3:47:11 PM 00:25.376 U' F2 L2 U L2 B2 L2 D U' R2 U2 R U B' U' F' D' F' L2 B2 D U'
17050 Nov 4, 2018 3:46:03 PM 00:27.993 R2 L2 U2 L2 U F2 U L2 B2 U' R' D' U2 B' D' F2 L B L' F' U'
17049 Nov 4, 2018 3:45:11 PM 00:28.023 U R2 D2 B2 L2 U L2 B2 U L2 U R D' U L2 B2 F' R' L' B D' L2
17048 Nov 4, 2018 3:44:24 PM 00:23.081 U' F2 D F2 D2 U' R2 D R2 L2 U2 R' U B' L D' U' B2 D2 U2 R U'
17047 Nov 4, 2018 3:43:27 PM 00:22.921 U L2 D' B2 D' F2 U2 B2 L2 D L2 B D' F' U' L' U B' R L'
17046 Nov 4, 2018 3:42:13 PM 00:30.069 D L2 F2 D2 F2 D R2 D' U' R2 F2 R D L2 D B' U2 F2 R B' U2
17045 Nov 4, 2018 3:40:47 PM 00:28.665 R2 F2 U2 R2 B2 U' L2 B2 D U F2 R F' R' B U F2 D L' D R U
17044 Nov 4, 2018 3:39:51 PM 00:23.937 D2 L2 B2 U L2 D' F2 D' U' R2 B2 L B L2 F2 U F' D F' L U
17043 Nov 4, 2018 3:38:57 PM 00:24.537 R2 L2 B2 U' L2 B2 U' L2 F2 R2 D L D' F' U' R' B U L' D' F' D2
17042 Nov 4, 2018 3:38:02 PM 00:21.851 U L2 B2 U2 R2 U' F2 R2 U2 L2 D R' F' R' B U' L' F2 R U2 B2 L'
17041 Nov 4, 2018 3:36:56 PM 00:25.159 L2 U F2 L2 U2 F2 D' R2 U' R2 L2 F' L' F2 D2 B' U' F2 R' L' D' L'
17040 Nov 4, 2018 3:35:52 PM 00:25.912 L2 U' F2 D' R2 U L2 B2 D U' R' D F2 U R' L' F D' R F U2
17039 Nov 4, 2018 3:35:03 PM 00:18.850 D F2 R2 L2 D L2 F2 U B2 U' L' F' D' R2 D' R D' U' F' L2 D
17038 Nov 4, 2018 3:34:15 PM 00:23.341 R2 D' B2 D L2 F2 D2 F2 D U2 F2 L D2 L B' F' U' B R L U
17037 Nov 4, 2018 3:33:29 PM 00:21.404 D' L2 U' L2 U' B2 D B2 U' R2 U2 F L' D' L2 B' D' B U' F2 D2
17036 Nov 4, 2018 3:32:29 PM 00:24.165 U' L2 F2 L2 D B2 U B2 U R2 U2 L' U B2 R' B D B2 L D' F U2
17035 Nov 4, 2018 3:31:33 PM 00:32.876 U' F2 R2 D' F2 R2 U2 F2 U2 B2 U' B R U' B D2 L2 B' F' L D U'
17034 Nov 4, 2018 3:30:42 PM 00:23.335 B2 D2 L2 F2 D B2 R2 D' F2 U' R B2 D2 R' B' L' F2 U' F' L2 F U'
17033 Nov 4, 2018 3:29:30 PM 00:30.573 L2 D2 B2 L2 D' L2 B2 D' B2 D2 R2 F D2 L' D L2 B F' R' L F D2
17032 Nov 4, 2018 3:28:41 PM 00:26.215 L2 D B2 F2 R2 D R2 D' R2 D2 R D' B' F' U' L F' D B2 R L
17031 Nov 4, 2018 11:43:10 AM 00:21.358 F2 U2 B2 L2 U' B2 R2 L2 D' F2 D F' L' B F2 D L' B2 D B
17030 Nov 4, 2018 11:42:24 AM 00:23.851 F2 D B2 U2 F2 U' R2 U2 L2 F2 L' B2 U2 B' R B U L2 B L' U'
17029 Nov 4, 2018 11:41:34 AM 00:25.709 D' L2 B2 D R2 D' R2 U2 L2 D L2 B' F' U B U L' D2 F D2 U2
17028 Nov 4, 2018 11:40:47 AM 00:23.710 U' L2 B2 U' B2 D' R2 U2 R2 F2 D L' D2 R2 B' F2 R2 F' D' B2 U'
 

openseas

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
425
WCA
2015PARK24
I think I’ve said before that 4BLD is my next big challenge. If we can get a delegate I’m planning on organizing a comp in early February that will include 4BLD. That’s a good incentive. Now I just need to find time to practice.
I believe Walker lives there
 

openseas

Member
Joined
Oct 11, 2015
Messages
425
WCA
2015PARK24
Ha ha, funny!

Yes, he can try 100 next year :)
Speaking of the day light savings, I flew to Asia over the weekend, basically lost one hour. I was in US when it started this year.... just a pure "loss".
 
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