non-opposite neutral

[Stefan]

Concerning color neutrality in Cross+F2L, I've only seen none, opposite and full. I'm none (always white cross) and when I try the opposite, it confuses me. The main pair colors (for me, orange+blue, blue+red, red+green, green+orange) are the same, but they're in reverse order and flipped. Also, it's possible to see only the orange and blue stickers of a corner and judging by their order, know whether the third sticker belongs to the first face. I don't intentionally use this, but I think unconsciously it trips me up when I use opposite color cross.

So how about non-opposite neutrality? Where you start with let's say white, red or green, but not yellow, orange or blue. This way you'd have more neutrality than opposite, without the confusing reversion effects. Is anyone doing this? Has it been discussed or even analyzed (like Lars's analysis) before?

 

[nck]

Concerning color neutrality in Cross+F2L, I've only seen none, opposite and full. I'm none (always white cross) and when I try the opposite, it confuses me. The main pair colors (for me, orange+blue, blue+red, red+green, green+orange) are the same, but they're in reverse order and flipped. Also, it's possible to see only the orange and blue stickers of a corner and judging by their order, know whether the third sticker belongs to the first face. I don't intentionally use this, but I think unconsciously it trips me up when I use opposite color cross.

So how about non-opposite neutrality? Where you start with let's say white, red or green, but not yellow, orange or blue. This way you'd have more neutrality than opposite, without the confusing reversion effects. Is anyone doing this? Has it been discussed or even analyzed (like Lars's analysis) before?

I kinda like opposite neutrality because when I look for f2l pairs, I tend to look for white on corner pieces and ignore yellow on edge pieces.
Switching between yellow and white is alright since the edge pieces have the same combination of colours, only 'flipped'.
I guess non-oppo neutrality would confuse me even more because I tend to ignore all the yellow on edge pieces

 

[Kirjava]

I don't see why anyone would choose to selectivly do this.

Your level of neutrality is created out of habit. It's not harder to do, you just have to decide to do it earlier on and stick with it (of course, it's harder to switch once you're used to a set of colours). If someone decided that they would limit themselves to three colours and practise on just those, why not just do all six?

The reason why opposite neutral is so popular is because it's an easy way for mono cross solvers to gain some neutrality without much adaption required.

 

[StachuK1992]

I feel that many people may be 'best' at solving in a certain hierarchy, much like:
-white
-yellow
-green
-blue
-red/orange

Mainly, though, this is because blue/green is used more than red/orange, and so others tend to 'try it out' more, thus being better at it later on.

As Thom said, I don't know why one would choose this.
I feel as though doing opposite-cross is just a matter of knowing to pair "oppositely," in a z2 or x2 fashion and is much easier than having to rotate along z or x in a singular fashion. (if that's worded well at all)

 

[maggot]

Stefan, I think with practice, opposite color neutral will yield results quicker than non opposite. This is because not only f2l flip is simpler, but also cross execution. Knowing the color scheme rotationally allows you to position the cross pieces faster and when working on opposite color cross, the rotation is reverse. With non opposite, you'd have to become comfortable with the color scheme that is completely different from your white cross. Even if you manage to solve yellow cross with the white color scheme, you are a simple alg from fixing the issue... with practice, of course, you will make the mistake less and less. A good example of this is void cube where you are trying to position the cross without knowledge of advanced cross execution. After solving first f2l pair, you see your cross is backward and are able to fix it quickly and reinsert your f2l pair. After time you end up learning the color scheme anyway because its an annoyance to fix it. Not only this but f2l execution is proved to be slower without practice on that specific color... so why not skip the headache and learn what you know flipped? How many algs do you know that can be mirrored for a left hand case? I know quite a few. And the only issue I have with left hand alg is not recognition or execution, it is speed, because I'm right handed and my left is naturally more retarded! Hahah.. hopefully we will see something come of this though. Cheers!

 

[jiggy]

I think that this is an interesting idea, but it would only be beneficial if colour neutral solvers also suffer from this opposite face confusion. Otherwise, we're just discussing a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. However, if this is the case, your suggestion would be a good compromise between the benefits of neutrality and the issue of opposite face confusion.

The question is: Is opposite face confusion an issue for colour neutral solvers, or do they -by becoming colour neutral- overcome this issue? Can any colour neutral solvers comment on this?

 

[zachtastic]

As a white cross solver, I too have experienced adjacent color confusion. Basically I focused on the white pairs, yellow LL. This made the megaminx quite difficult to solve (10+ minutes). After practicing for a week I have started to look at the megaminx colors in relation to each other, rather than just white and yellow. I am sub-3. This has translated to my 3x3x3 solving, as I can solve on all colors much easier. Recognition is not perfect, but I believe with practice could be tremendously improved. Stefan, you are a far superior megaminx-er, and have much more experience than I, is the megaminx correlation a shared experience, or do you just look at the colors differently?

 

[Matt S]

That's a very interesting point about the Megaminx. Stephan's system for solving the Megaminx requires forming and inserting edge-corner pairs of various colors, but since he always does the faces in the same order (I think), he doesn't have to deal with the quirks of opposite color neutrality.

 

[Sa967St]

Brenden (Gurplex) started off using only yellow crosses, then he decided to switch to blue crosses for lols. His times are now about the same regardless if he chooses to use yellow or blue crosses.

 

[riffz]

For me, the reason I'm dual colour (white, yellow) is because the secondary (side) colours are the same and so it doesn't throw my recognition off.

I pretty much agree with Kirjava on this one.

 

[teller]

I am feeling the OP. Originally white cross, the first color I felt comfortable with was blue, then orange, because there was less mental cross-talk with my original scheme.

I'm just barely to the point of knowing the blue color scheme in a not-really-automatic way, still hammering it in, and a green cross just throws confusion into what it already a little shaky.

The more I do this, I am beginning to suspect that unless you started out neutral, you're in for a world of pain.

 

[maggot]

that's not true necessarily. You can become color neutral at any point, its just you are used to looking for any edge that doesn't have white or yellow, whichever cross you solve, but you can train to be comfortable with any color scheme. It is just like learning a new alg. At first you seem kind of off, but in the end its just the same old f2l you've done time and time again with new colors.

 

[nlCuber22]

I can solve on white, yellow, or blue. I'm best on white though.

 

[incessantcheese]

i don't know if i have that problem stefan, but when i tried opposite color cross i slot pieces into the wrong place all the time. sometimes i'll even slot the pair into the wrong slot on the front face. so when i do the opposite cross, i find myself consciously glancing at the centers throughout the solve, which i figured must be slowing me down, so i stick to one color now.

 

[Dene]

I'd say that, for Mr. Pochmann, the problem is simply that he has been using white cross for way too long.

 

[Hadley4000]

The question is: Is opposite face confusion an issue for colour neutral solvers, or do they -by becoming colour neutral- overcome this issue? Can any colour neutral solvers comment on this?

Never been an issue for me.

I think part of it has to do with when you started being color neutral. There was a point where I knew how to get just 1 side, and would just randomly pick a side to start on(Not knowing how to solve the rest), so I became good at making a cross before I could solve the cube. Eventually I solved the cube on my own(Using my own weird method, which I cannot remember), and I just randomly started on a face.

Basically, I have never know anything but color neutral, so the confusion was never there. But, for someone like Stefan for example, who has been doing white cross for years, he has become used to the edge and corner pieces matching up in a specific way, the only way he has been used to. But, if before you become only able to recognize how the white corners match up with the edges, then that is a non-issue.


Also, a good example is Rowe Hessler. He started off using Petrus. So when he was in the learning stages of cubing, he did not begin to just match edges in 1 way, so he was able to use neutrality without much confusion.

 

[Cubenovice]

I have tried a few times to start with yellow cross (usually white) and I also felt the mirror effect.

Yesterday I asked my daughter who can solve the cube since one week to start with a different color (tought her with white cross start) and her recognition and solve time did not seem to be affected at all.

It could be because she does not have the "white color habit" yet but here's another thing to consider for her case.
She is solving LBL so the edge placement of the 2nd layer is actually not affected. You do look for different pieces as usual but there is no "mirror effect" for the slots.

So, Stefan, perhaps you could switch back to a LBL method ?

 

[CharlesOBlack]

The question is: Is opposite face confusion an issue for colour neutral solvers, or do they -by becoming colour neutral- overcome this issue? Can any colour neutral solvers comment on this?

Basically, I have never known anything but color neutral, so the confusion was never there.

That's the same way I feel about color neutrality.

What my brain does is it automatically "picks up" the color I'm using as a cross and selects the edges/corners that have that color (either by logic or just by sight) and my hands just do what they're told. :rolleyes: This leads to no opposite face confusion, because what I'm doing is just matching up the selected pieces, not looking for a specific set of colors in a piece.

I certainly felt this happening when I started doing Roux; I'd make the 1x2x3 blocks and even though I had JUST finished the 2nd one, I'd have to check what color was my D side so I could solve the corners.
After maybe 50 solves or so I "know" the color that is on my D side.

 

[maggot]

As far as the mirror effect and matching pieces in certain ways, intuitive f2l is still done the same way, you hide the edge or corner to make a pair or you pair and insert... yes, you have to hide the edge to the opposite way than you would on white, but if you line the edge up to the cross and move away from the corner it goes in.... I'm just not understanding why it is such a big deal. The only thing I notice strongly is that I think my cross is messed up when I see white edge pieces, or I stop looking for yellow pieces and start making white corner edge pairs... with other colors the thing I notice more is I have to speak to myself in my head what the other 2 colors on the corner are and I usually do not find edges first, I find the corners and then the corresponding edge, but this only effects my time marginally. With white/yellow cross, I can spot an edge first and then scan for the corner, but the mirror effect... not effected