new blindfolds

[Dyste]

I really think the pinhole glasses with extra covering would work well, as it's also said on wikipedia to prevent peripheral vision, not that that would be helpful, since it's kind of apparently suspicious if you're looking to the side for some odd reason. I suppose people would be worried about those looking downward, though. There's also a matter of procurement, since they're supposed to be in place of conventional eyeglasses.

 

[masterofthebass]

I agree with the blackened out goggle scenario. the pinhole glasses idea is basically the same. Blackened out goggles solve every problem that we have, but I can't seem to think that wearing swimming goggles for long periods of time is a good thing. I know that you're not even supposed to wear swimming goggles when you're not swimming. If there was an option somewhat like those welding goggles that was more feasible, I would vote for that.

 

[Erik]

I don't see why swimming goggles could give ANY problem. There is no way to peek underneath them and if the goggles are provided by WCA or such it's also sure that they are 100% non-see-through. They are very comfortable (it can even be loosened at will) so also good for multi or bigger cubes.
Actualy, I already competed with them. I first gave them to the main judges and it never was denied (people in the main judge including Ron and Ton).
Personally I even close my eyes under them so I can concentrate better but that's not what all people do I guess, at home I don't even wear any blindfold when I'm BLD-ing, just close my eyes and DON'T peek of course

 

[Stefan]

close my eyes and DON'T peak of course

This way you'll never get a peak performance... better just don't peek.

i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube

Quite the contrary. Covering the cube actually offers new ways to cheat! Who's going to stop me from peeling the stickers off then? Seriously. Hiding the cube makes things worse.

And saying slow people can cheat doesn't sound like you. What if someone cheats to get a 5:01 after everyone else has DNF-ed? Not a realistic scenario I hear people think, but that could have happened at WC2007 5x5x5_blind.

You're right, doesn't sound like me. I'm mostly worried about people breaking world records with cheating, and for some reason mostly thought of 3x3 when I said that. But you're right, the more complicated events are a different story.

However, I repeat that we could have different blindfolds for different events. Obviously single 3x3 bld is the most important blindfold event, and it's relatively fast. So at least for this we could use the safest blindfolds available.

 

[hait2]

i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube

Quite the contrary. Covering the cube actually offers new ways to cheat! Who's going to stop me from peeling the stickers off then? Seriously. Hiding the cube makes things worse.

lmao you can't be serious
peeling off the stickers? did you actually think about it when you posted or was it the first thing that came to mind and you just posted thinking that there's probably something else that's actually plausible?


edit: anyway i guess i see why the audience needs to see the cube. as avg said, it's pretty much impossible to satisfactorily close someone's eyes, so the barrier remains a solution.

now, there's the problem of signals from the crowd, so the solver shouldn't be able to see the crowd. thinking about this some more, i don't think that's a valid argument. firstly, i doubt it would go unnoticed by other crowd members as someone is waving hands or blinking oddly or lifting up certain fingers or what have you. secondly, it would probably be slower anyway so who cares?

edit#2: thinking about the signals from crowd.. well that would involve the audience member(s) knowing BLD and knowing the scramble. so ok, let's assume that somehow happened. if that happened, it doesn't actually matter what we do, as there's so many ways to cheat now, that it's impossible to prevent it. i mean, even i have a tiny in-ear bluetooth headphone which, with long hair covering the ear, is impossible to see. even without hair, you'd need to look INTO the ear to even notice it. hmm that gives me an idea..

so, maybe i'm missing something, but how important is it for the solver to not see the crowd (since the only problem i can think of is the signals from said crowd which are either uselessly slow, or impossible to prevent in the first place)?

 

[Stefan]

i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube

Quite the contrary. Covering the cube actually offers new ways to cheat! Who's going to stop me from peeling the stickers off then? Seriously. Hiding the cube makes things worse.

lmao you can't be serious
peeling off the stickers? did you actually think about it when you posted or was it the first thing that came to mind and you just posted thinking that there's probably something else that's actually plausible?

No, I was very serious. You can think of blindcubing as three skills:

1) Memorize a scrambled cube.
2) Solve (by twisting) a cube at all.
3) Solve (by twisting) a cube blindfolded.

If the cube is hidden, the only skill you need is to memorize the scrambled cube. You don't need to know how to solve (by twisting) a cube blindfolded, you don't even need to know how to solve (by twisting) a cube at all. Simply because you could do it by peeling the stickers off.

 

[Dene]

That is a very good point. With easy to remove and restick stickers, that could easily be done.

 

[CraigBouchard]

The thing with a paper test is that you can get around it if you are cheating, and if you aren't, then you may be accused if you get stuck at a bad part of the solve when someone puts the paper over. Is the cheating issue really that prominent? Are there people that are known to do it now for us to need to change how things are done now?

 

[CraigBouchard]

Ok, so removing stickers wouldn't be obvious at ALL...the hand movements would be very similar to that of actually cubing (Note the sarcasm) I'm not sure if anyone has seen my Blindfold, but I got it from a sex shop, instead of from a sleep place, and it works very well. It is leather, with velvet on the inner side. To peek, you actually have to try very hard...I've tried a couple of times (not in competition) Just to see if I even could, and its virtually impossible. Sometimes I pull it down, and wonder if its on right, so I open my eyes under it (I close my eyes while solving...) And there is virtually no light. A bit by the nose, but that is it...The slit is so tiny that you have to find the perfect angle to see the cube, and even then its a bit out of focus.

Also, when I am solving, I sometimes turn my head, look in different places, even though my eyes are closed. It is just me thinking. As I asked before, is this a big issue that people are indeed cheating? And you said you wanted to prevent world records caused by cheating, so I am going to pick on Matyas for a second, since he has the current record. If you watch his videos, almost every solve, no matter how fast or slow it is, he takes 10-15 seconds memo, usually 13. Now, I don't doubt he memorizes that fast, but someone could argue that he uses that as a buffer before putting on his BLD and solving while *cheating.* Some of the things Stefan has said sound pretty ridiculous, and I realize this sounds ridiculous too, but I'm saying that you can argue any case if you really want to.

/rant done

 

[Stefan]

Is the cheating issue really that prominent? Are there people that are known to do it now for us to need to change how things are done now?

http://www.speedsolving.com/showpost.php?p=25276&postcount=29

The video has been removed in the meantime, but what it showed was someone at a cube club meeting speedblindsolving five cubes in 4-5 minutes after 3 minutes memorization. That's total, not per cube. Allegedly he had his eyes closed, but from analyzing the video it's clear that he cheated.

 

[Stefan]

I am going to pick on Matyas for a second, since he has the current record. If you watch his videos, almost every solve, no matter how fast or slow it is, he takes 10-15 seconds memo, usually 13. Now, I don't doubt he memorizes that fast, but someone could argue that he uses that as a buffer before putting on his BLD and solving while *cheating.*

Absolutely correct. And safer blindfolds could help prevent such suspicions. I want safer blindfolds also for myself, and I think Matyas would like them, too. I just realized I have only thought about this in previous discussions, but didn't mention it this time yet: There's actually two reasons I want better blindfolds.

1) To prevent peeking.
2) To be able to confidently say that nobody is peeking.

 

[blade740]

Well, they make swim goggles similar to those welding goggles (i.e., don't cover the nose). I'd even be willing to bet they sell them at dollar stores. With that, a spray of black paint on the inside AND out, and a quick test to make sure no light gets through, I think you'd have a VERY effective blindfold, at a decent price.

And yes, I agree that the biggest reason for better blindfold isn't to stop cheaters. It's to make sure that no matter what, our rankings are legitimate. I'm sure the top blindfold cubers would agree that it makes so much more sense to level the playing field, instead of allowing any sort of cheating. A blindfold as suggested wouldn't hamper cubers' times, as things like a table might (I know I, for one, would be thrown off by an awkward stance).

Not to mention the fact that when non-cubers (and blindfold disbelievers) claim that we're peeking, we can show them that our blindfolds are strictly regulated and that all outrageous times are completely fair.

 

[AvGalen]

I have seen someone cheating during the European Open 2006 (I don't remember his name, I think he was German and he was very nicely dressed. Grada Ooms saw it too and we nicknamed him Mozart)

However, even after cheating repeatedly during that solve he DNF'ed so we didn't intervene.

 

[Stefan]

I have seen someone cheating during the European Open 2006 (I don't remember his name, I think he was German and he was very nicely dressed. Grada Ooms saw it too and we nicknamed him Mozart)

You take that back right now! None of us Germans are ever very nicely dressed!

But seriously... looking at the competition page there were only three Germans in BLD, one is me and I know the other two personally and trust them completely. I think I know who you mean, a guy who was indeed very nicely dressed and who also speaks German, but he's a very nice guy and I also trust him.

How do you know he cheated?

 

[CraigBouchard]

The video has been removed in the meantime, but what it showed was someone at a cube club meeting speedblindsolving five cubes in 4-5 minutes after 3 minutes memorization. That's total, not per cube. Allegedly he had his eyes closed, but from analyzing the video it's clear that he cheated.

So, at an unofficial cube meeting that was unimportant? If he were to try to do it officially, that would change everything, but at an unofficial event, he is only disgracing himself...

 

[AvGalen]

I know he cheated because I saw him stop several times, rub his eyes, look from under the blindfold at the cube and then continue. The first time I saw this I didn't know for sure, but he repeated it several times. It was not one of those might/might not situations. Grada Ooms also saw it and she was very mad about it. The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")

Just to make sure we are talking about the same person, he was using a black bag for practice that covered his whole head.

 

[Stefan]

The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")

When I was first shown those, they were praised as being much better. But I could peek under them just as well as with the normal blindfolds.

 

[AvGalen]

The next time I visited her she showed me a couple of prototype blindfolds she made that had seams around the nose to fit better (that is how Grada gets about "injustice")

When I was first shown those, they were praised as being much better. But I could peek under them just as well as with the normal blindfolds.

Yes, that is the problem if you use a seam. The seam was specifically tailored (pun intended) to Alexander Ooms head/eyes/nose. For him they really worked, but not for others.

(were we indeed talking about the same person)

 

[Stefan]

So, at an unofficial cube meeting that was unimportant?

Unofficial meeting is a first step from private practice to official competition. They're already cheating right in front of other cubers. Who knows where he'll stop?

Also, his case is very obvious. There might already be cheaters in competition but just not cheating this obviously. And again, I'd like to emphasize I also want this to be more confident about the people I do trust, and for myself.

 

[frsechet]

Hi everyone, and Arnaud,
I'm not reading this board too often, but Stefan emailed me to tell me something was going on here... He believes I am the one in question here.
There is nothing I can tell that is going to make you change your mind about me because you are already 120% certain of what you say and it's kinda old so you pretty much discarded every doubt you possibly had by then to replace it by an absolute certainty, but I did NOT cheat during Euro 06 (nor during any other competition anyway).
I remember talking to Ron about it, and probably he remembers it too, but I wasn't happy with the blindfolds at all. I have a pretty large face and a quite big nose, the blindfold used were often way too tight for me, which made the blindfold not only "reach into" my eyes (which were closed anyway, you can figure that having something getting into your open eyes for 40 mins is not very comfortable), but also made it open under my eyes. I wanted to use my regular blindfold, the one I use in my daily practice, this is basically a large black scarf I fold in double so not too much light comes in, that is wide enough to cover my whole face, but Ron didn't want me to use that one because he told me even if the blindfold used weren't perfect, they were recognized as official blindfolds by the WCA and he didn't want to waste time to check if every blindfold was conform. So I eventually went on with the regular blindfold.
The only thing I can say is, I close my eyes during the solving part, or sometimes I just look up to the ceiling. That is just pure reflex, I don't even think about it. The scratching the eyes part was, you know, you get tired, you get out of focus, so you scratch your eyes, I don't know, figure it out by yourself. And about the "looking under the blindfold", I don't know too, I just use to move my head around from time to time, because staying there without moving for a long time can get tiring. I don't have much more to say than that.
But please, no more "I know that he cheated because". You don't know. You think. You believe. But you don't know. That is not fair, that is not even giving me a chance of defending myself. Ron came to me after that event and we had a discussion about this, and he believed me.
And you know what? I've always thought (well not any more, but by the time) that Kuti was cheating during the final of the regular BLD event. But that is probably more because I failed and he won. Jealousy, I think... ;-)
We need to trust each other some more, I have my conscience for myself, you have yours for yourself, and so does everyone. What if I came and said, "hmmm my friend and I saw you cheating back then two years ago, and now you have no chance in proving the contrary we are going to spread the word that you're a cheater".
SO: I agree, the blindfolds are bad. Come up with something that fully covers the head but at the same time, is comfortable, and is easy to tie/knot/put on all by yourself during a solve, then we'll see. I like the idea of having to solve with your hands behind a board, but then again, it's not very practical, because it would require some stretching with your hands so that's losing some more time so that's not really being an option.
Whatever, I don't really like being pointed out like that. Do you have any evidence? I mean, something other than bringing up an old history that was already ruled in time? You may think what you want, I probably won't make you change your mind because you already "KNOW" what you say. I want to keep polite so I won't say what I "KNOW" about you...
(I am very aware that this is an internet forum, and english is neither my nor your mother language, so it's probably not what you really mean. I have no doubt that you are a very nice person. But please watch your language, and double check before sending. Words hurt, as you can see. We're adults, we can also behave like adults.)
Have a nice evening, so was mine until now because I have a niece since a few hours. And happy New Year everyone, happy cubing and stuff... Even to you, my friend Arnaud! Don't want to make ennemies here.