new blindfolds

[Stefan]

I've been thinking about new ways to blindfold in order to prevent cheating better:
http://stefan-pochmann.info/spocc/blindsolving/blindfolds/

 

[Pedro]

well, I like the towels better...

you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?

 

[AvGalen]

I agree we need better blindfolds, but I have problems with all your ideas:

Chin-on-table: Not practical, especially not for multi-blind
Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms
Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.
Towel: This will be difficult for people with astma, hygiene is indeed an issue and there is no guarantee that the towels will be thick enough.

And a general issue I have is that most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.

The big problem is that I agree with you that a solution that goes from neck/throat to above the eyes would work best, but that would be bad for the above reasons.

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise

 

[CraigBouchard]

The thing is with all of those methods, I often tilt my head down while solving, and almost look at the floor. I always solve with my eyes closed underneath my blindfold, but I dunno, these don't seem practical...The chin on table, as Arnaud said, not practical. Uncomfortable, and annoying. The paper idea, well, thats annoying as well as unsafe...Who says someone might not tilt a bit to see it. And the towel, well...how much time will I waste throwing it over my head while sitting close to a timer?

 

[Rama]

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise

Erik has the prototype.

Anyway, I think the diving glasses will work fine, but some people prefer to breath with their nose, maybe make some holes to breath trough the nose?

At the UK Open Ron brought a pair of welding glasses, they also work fine and are comfortable, but it has tiny holes at the sides and I just read at the WCA forum that they are looking for a better version.

 

[AvGalen]

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise

Erik has the prototype.

Anyway, I think the diving glasses will work fine, but some people prefer to breath with their nose, maybe make some holes to breath trough the nose?

At the UK Open Ron brought a pair of welding glasses, they also work fine and are comfortable, but it has tiny holes at the sides and I just read at the WCA forum that they are looking for a better version.

Eriks prototype is flawed (and too tight). The swimming glass I linked to would give less opportunity for cheating. Holes for breathing through the nose are a good idea.

 

[Stefan]

you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?

I read a bit about trick blindfolds a while ago. I don't know how they work and there seem to be different ones, but I do remember some of them were said to allow giving them to the audience for inspection. For a towel, there could be a tiny spot somewhere that allows looking through, which might easily be missed by the judge inspecting the towel. That spot might also be closed at first, and opened by tearing an inner layer apart in a certain way, after the inspection.

Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms

Why? Arms aren't affected at all the way I envision this.

Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.

Not with the shield I've shown. I need to tilt the head down quite a lot to see the cube, and also need to hold the cube a little higher than I normally would. If I peek at the cube this way, it will be very noticable. Also, this is like I called it, a prototype. Just to tell the general idea. it could be a shield made up from two parts, one stays horizontaly around the neck, the other can be flipped upwards after memorization.

most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.

I don't care. Or rather, I don't care about this nearly as much as I care for good competition.

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise

I think someone who wants to cheat, can cheat with those. It's very hard to ensure that they are absolutely close to the skin. Also, they hide the eyes, allowing the person wearing them to fully open his eyes and abuse even tinier gaps. But I started this paragraph with "I think" because I haven't tested this exact type. I'll try testing some if I can find some without having to buy them.

 

[joey]

At the UK Open Ron brought a pair of welding glasses, they also work fine and are comfortable, but it has tiny holes at the sides and I just read at the WCA forum that they are looking for a better version.

Oh? I thought they were his sunglasses!

Modeled by Rama:
http://flickr.com/photos/flowmo/1968042521/in/set-72157603086472448/

Modeled by Matyas:
http://flickr.com/photos/flowmo/1968221343/in/set-72157603086472448/

 

[Dene]

What about one of those one-sided mirror things? Solve with the cube behind it, so you can't see, while everyone can still see your face?

 

[Lucas Garron]

I'm for the Wetten, Dass? style: smimming goggles of some type. I'd prefer them to be a bit loose but have extended fabric/material blocking the view a bit farther out.

Also (not so sure this would work well), we could shield the cube from the solver (in addition to a blindfold).

For now, I think the occasional paper test works well. They need to start doing it at Berkeley and Caltech...

 

[AvGalen]

you said they could be "prepared" or so, but this could be solved by having the main judge "inspecting" the competitors towels before the competition...or no?

I read a bit about trick blindfolds a while ago. I don't know how they work and there seem to be different ones, but I do remember some of them were said to allow giving them to the audience for inspection. For a towel, there could be a tiny spot somewhere that allows looking through, which might easily be missed by the judge inspecting the towel. That spot might also be closed at first, and opened by tearing an inner layer apart in a certain way, after the inspection.

I think you are taking this to far Stefan. People that use "prepared towels" with hidden layers that can be torn apart :confused: It would be much easier to have a friend scramble your cube into a prepared scramble

Chin-on-platform: Very uncomfortable position for the arms

Why? Arms aren't affected at all the way I envision this.

If the table is 70 cm high and the platform is at 90 cm that means my arms have to remain between the platform and the table (or maybe under the table is also allowed?) At this moment I can solve the cube behind my back or above my head if I want to and I definitely have more than 20 cm to put my arms. I also don't think this construction would be very practical to bring to a competition.

Sheets-off-paper: If I can look at the cube during inspection by tilting my head I can also look at the cube during the solve.

Not with the shield I've shown. I need to tilt the head down quite a lot to see the cube, and also need to hold the cube a little higher than I normally would. If I peek at the cube this way, it will be very noticable. Also, this is like I called it, a prototype. Just to tell the general idea. it could be a shield made up from two parts, one stays horizontaly around the neck, the other can be flipped upwards after memorization.

I have just tried this and it works better than expected, but a lot of this depends on the interpretation of the judge. If I have a nose-itch I better not scratch it while holding the cube in that hand.

most of these solutions make the competitor look bad or unrecognizable which is bad for spectators/media.

I don't care. Or rather, I don't care about this nearly as much as I care for good competition.

I also like good competition, but many people already consider us "freaks". If we sit there with towels covering our face we just prove them right. I (and I guess sponsors too) would rather have a photo with a Mátyás head, a blindfold and 15 solved cubes than 15 solved cubes and a towel.

A swimming glass like this one that has been made completely dark might be the best compromise

I think someone who wants to cheat, can cheat with those. It's very hard to ensure that they are absolutely close to the skin. Also, they hide the eyes, allowing the person wearing them to fully open his eyes and abuse even tinier gaps. But I started this paragraph with "I think" because I haven't tested this exact type. I'll try testing some if I can find some without having to buy them.

I have tried Eriks mini-goggles and they are already pretty hard to cheat with (but still possible). The big goggle I linked to seems almost impossible to cheat with because it goes around the nose and is made to close against the skin so no water can get in. Tiny gaps should be found by the judge. Gaps can be easily found by putting the goggle on. If light shines through it will be obvious.

I would also like to remind you that some people are slow and have to wear this "blindfold" for almost an hour during multi-blind or 5x5x5_blind.

 

[Stefan]

have a friend scramble your cube into a prepared scramble

Good point. Maybe we should have an independent scrambled cube checker.

If the table is 70 cm high and the platform is at 90 cm that means my arms have to remain between the platform and the table

I envision the platform more like 150cm (possibly adjustable to different body sizes) so that you can stand comfortably.

If I have a nose-itch I better not scratch it while holding the cube in that hand.

Better yet, just don't have a nose-itch.

many people already consider us "freaks". If we sit there with towels covering our face we just prove them right. I (and I guess sponsors too) would rather have a photo with a Mátyás head, a blindfold and 15 solved cubes than 15 solved cubes and a towel.

Again, I don't care, but I guess I have to acknowledge that others do.

Gaps can be easily found by putting the goggle on. If light shines through it will be obvious.

Um, you're talking about a broken goggle, right? I'm talking about gaps between goggle and skin.

I would also like to remind you that some people are slow and have to wear this "blindfold" for almost an hour during multi-blind or 5x5x5_blind.

We don't have to use the same blindfolds for all events! And we could have lower limits for different blindfolds. Let's say you want to use the old standard blindfolds for single 3x3, then you can't get a time better than 5 minutes. If you cheat to get 6 minutes for a 3x3, I don't care.

 

[pjk]

Stefan, good ideas. However, I think your idea while back about the blacked out goggles are best. They will fit firmly, they are relatively cheap, they are comfortable, and you can't cheat while wearing them.

 

[CorwinShiu]

I would rather have a judge hold a piece of paper in front the whole time. But that would be painful for the 5x5 bld and muti... Hmm.

Well, I think the blindfolds are fine. I doubt anyone would risk their integrity to win a DIY or some other prize.

Edit: I remember watching a documentary on youtube in japanese about a japanese blindfold cuber (not macky). They hooked up this brain things that measure what areas of the brain are being worked, and handed him this thing that covered the cube, but not his eyes. It's kind of like doing at BLD inside of those big hoodie pockets that go across your stomach, but it's not attached to your clothes. Anyone have that video?

 

[Stefan]

Where have you been the last few days? There are people risking (actually in this case throwing away) their integrity for *no* prize.

 

[AvGalen]

Just one more short reply before I go to sleep:

The logistics for all of this seem a bit excessive. Platforms, several different blindfolds, independent scramble checkers (can't they scratch me when I have a nose itch?)

And you want to force people to stand and not have nose-itches (I know you were kidding about that. You were kidding about that right?)

And saying slow people can cheat doesn't sound like you. What if someone cheats to get a 5:01 after everyone else has DNF-ed? Not a realistic scenario I hear people think, but that could have happened at WC2007 5x5x5_blind.

I think the black goggles are a much more realistic approach. Now we just have to test them, make sure there are no gaps in them (both broken or not entirely darkened like I thought you meant) and between them and the skin (like I now realize you meant)

 

[Dene]

Yea so how about this. You have the competitor sitting in a small well-lit booth (like a phone booth). On the front side, have a large pane of one-way glass. You have 2 holes, for the arms to get through, that have some kind of material where you can stick your arms through, and it will kind of suck itself around your elbows, or however far you stick your arms through, so no light gets through. Thus, the competitor will be in this booth, and will only be looking into a mirror, while those watching will see the person inspecting the cube, then put their arms through the holes, and solve. This may perhaps be a bit impractical if you have an itchy nose, but the goggles would be worse .

 

[Dyste]

You could cut out pieces of black construction paper and fix them into the lense slots of pinhole glasses, by either taping or gluing them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinhole_glasses

 

[hait2]

so ok, there's 2 options
covering up the eyes (which is filled with a billion problems already mentioned, ranging from, but not exclusive to, hygiene, media recognition, personal comfort and so on)

the other option is obviously covering up the cube
what's the problem with this one? aside from multiblind i can't think of one. and multiblind problem can also be solved by thinking a bit more carefully as to how to cover up the cube(s)

i mean seriously, something as simple as throwing a blanket over your hands as you solve and there's no way anyone can cheat since nobody can see the cube

now if the solver is the only person who should not be able to see the cube, then clearly, he should also not be able to see the audience -- meaning a barrier between the person and the cube (and therefore audience) is necessary, which is complicated

ok so how can we do blankets for multiblind? the real problem is something like when you put down a cube and move your hands over to another one, the blanket changes the orientation or otherwise flips the cube, making it unsolvable through no fault of the participant

so have something that holds up the blanket rather than your own hands, and there goes that problem. now what's the issue here? ok so nobody can see the cubes. how important is this? if it's important enough, clearly the 2 solutions (covering up eyes or putting up a complete barrier between solve and cube&audience) are both fraught with complications

sooooo once again, how necessary is it for the audience to see the cube?

/ramble off

 

[AvGalen]

how necessary is it for the audience to see the cube? Well, maybe we should just have soccer-matches without audiences and tell the results to the audience after the match is over. The first thing everyone always asks after a record is broken is "where is the video".

And solving with a blanket covering your hands and the cube means you will get worse times than now.

Option 2 has the big disadvantage that to prevent a direct line of sight between the eyes and cube, an unnatural body-position has to be used or a very big installation (compared to a simple blindfold/goggle) is needed or performance is hindered or spectators cannot see anything.

Option 1 has the big disadvantage that a perfect way of blocking sight near the eyes is nearly impossible.