[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

[~Adam~]

Good variation to know. I guess I'll find what I like out of the options.

 

[Nilsibert]

I just did an average of 5 for the first time using Hoya. There was one solve that was above 3 minutes, and it was because of a pop. That's already better than I ever did using normal reduction, and I don't even have experience with Hoya. I guess Hoya it is

 

[MarcelP]

I recently got into 5X5. I was averaging 8 minutes a little while ago. Today I had my PB Ao12 sub 5 minutes. I have been switching between free slice and HoYa. Each Hoya solve is about one minute slower than the free slice. Right now the scale is tipping to freeslice for me. The thing of pairing tredges and then making the centers allright again if what is slowing me down. In free slice I have so much more freedom in pairing and only do correcting centers in the end.

 

[Chree]

I recently got into 5X5. I was averaging 8 minutes a little while ago. Today I had my PB Ao12 sub 5 minutes. I have been switching between free slice and HoYa. Each Hoya solve is about one minute slower than the free slice. Right now the scale is tipping to freeslice for me. The thing of pairing tredges and then making the centers allright again if what is slowing me down. In free slice I have so much more freedom in pairing and only do correcting centers in the end.

This makes perfect sense. Unfortunately, I'm finding that whenever I take a break from 5x5 to practice other puzzles, maybe for a week at a time, when I come back, centers slow me down a LOT.

Also, in reponse to a post from TDM a while ago about AvG's Edge Pairing Method... that looks pretty awesome. Usually I do some form of freeslice, but if I get a lot of easy cases I try to do something like what he describes for the first 4 of L8E. I may look a little harder at this page and do a little experimenting. Being able to do this every time seems pretty advantageous.

 

[~Adam~]

[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

Quick update, I'm starting to get regular sub 2 5x5 solves and have settled on typically solving 2 of the last 8 tredges then putting them in the back, however if my look ahead is good sometimes I solve some more pieces 1st. Occasionally I solve 4 freeslice style if it feels right.

When I finish 1st 4 centres I've all but stopped looking at D to find solved pieces and instead quickly glance for at least 2 pieces from one cross tredge and start inserting.

 

[Nilsibert]

I'm still not sure which way to go. I average about the same with Hoya and normal reduction. Having the cross already solved is quite the advantage. But it's also a bit of a restriction when doing L8E or especially L4E, where with reduction I could do R2s as long as the centers allow it. With Hoya, I have to do a ton of flipping algs. I've also started to experiment with solving L4E in the M slice, which is quite nice and there's neat shortcuts to benefit from.
Edges in general are quite hard with reduction, especially if you don't have a bias where you solve white/yellow(or any other colours) first, but I'd say that's a matter of practice. Reduction just seems to allow much more freedom :/

 

[AirbusCube]

Today I did my first timed Hoya solve on 4x4. With normal Yau, I am sub 2 minutes and 50 seconds, with Hoya I'm sub 2 minutes and 40 seconds, I like Hoya. Probably switch to it. Need some more solves to decide.

 

[Chree]

I'm definitely stuck on Hoya for 4x4.

I played around with redux on 5x5. Nils, I definitely see your point: Preserving the cross definitely means more edge flips when you could have otherwise just R2'd. And there are definitely cases you get while building the cross that are less efficient than an equivalent case in redux or even Yau.

But you can minimize these cases, execute them quickly, and the pay off in lookahead still seems worth it. I've done some redux practice and those solves don't come near my Hoya times. Granted, my redux is out of practice now.

I tried Hoya on 6x6 last night. I'm gonna see how many of the algs I've been using on Hoya Cross for 4x4 and 5x5 can be translated to different cases to make Hoya on 6x6 more palatable. It's tough because my SS needs to be cleaned, and I dread the thought of taking it apart and having to put it back together. But this is for science!

 

[mark49152]

I have also been experimenting with Hoya on 6x6. My approach to edges is as follows:-

1. Solve the inner edges of the cross 4x4 Hoya style. Can use just wide turns as I don't care about outer edges yet.

2. Solve the outer cross edges 5x5 Hoya style, with wide turns.

3. Pair all other inner edges. I've tried two approaches and can't decide which I prefer. Probably the first.
A. Solve an extra edge Hoya style, fill both back slots, and solve inner edges AvG style on FR and FL; or
B. Solve inner edges 4x4 3-2-3 style.

4. Once all inners are joined, complete pairing of outers and inners AvG style.

 

[TDM]

I have also been experimenting with Hoya on 6x6. My approach to edges is as follows:-
3. Pair all other inner edges. I've tried two approaches and can't decide which I prefer. Probably the first.
A. Solve an extra edge Hoya style, fill both back slots, and solve inner edges AvG style on FR and FL; or
B. Solve inner edges 4x4 3-2-3 style.
4. Once all inners are joined, complete pairing of outers and inners AvG style.

This is very similar to what I do when I do 6x6 (which is almost never), except I solve my cross with freeslice. But for L8E, I also pair up middle edges with 3-2-3 and then finish with AvG.
I think when you get to cubes as large as 6x6, Hoya is just too inefficient.

 

[mark49152]

I think when you get to cubes as large as 6x6, Hoya is just too inefficient.

Possibly. It's pretty move-inefficient on 5x5 and even 4x4, but that's a trade off against lookahead, and that depends on the person.

It would be interesting to see a study of move counts for Hoya versus other methods on 5x5 and up.

 

[Chree]

I thought about that... the efficiency problem. I tried to consider how many moves it takes to solve any single edge/dedge/tredge/fedge/pedge piece in normal redux (usually 3 or 4) vs Hoya (between 3 and 7). So it's a real obsticle. Using tricky algs to place more than one piece at a time helps, but requires much better lookahead, and usually a lot of luck.

Also, the bigger the cube gets, the cumbersome it gets to execute Hoya "algs", where redux uses much simpler moves.

I doubt my Hoya on 6x6 experimentation will last much longer.

 

[~Adam~]

[Help Thread] Hoya Discussion

I've been practicing a lot over the last few days after a complete mess in comp and now I'm getting loads of sub 2s on 5x5. I've been solving 5-8 with free slice unless the 1st 2 solve leaving the centres solved, then I switch to AVG. I check the DR as I finish a cross tredge and if there is a flipped piece I, R D' F.

 

[sk8erman41]

what alg do you guys use for one tredge flip? the one that I use (same one as 4x4) messes up cross unless I do outer layer turns. Any good one that preserves the cross?

 

[Lazy Einstein]

what alg do you guys use for one tredge flip? the one that I use (same one as 4x4) messes up cross unless I do outer layer turns. Any good one that preserves the cross?
View attachment 4798

Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2 Lw' U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 x' Rw' U2 Rw' U2 M'

r2 B2 U2 l U2 r' U2 r U2 F2 r F2 l' B2 r2 from 4x4x4 is good as well.

 

[Robert-Y]

EDIT: No and maybe...

You can try: Rw U2 Rww U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2 Lw' U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 x' Rw' U2 Rw' (Rww = R + two layers next to it)

 

[mark49152]

Or Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 Rw U2 Lw' U2 Rww U2 Rw' U2 x' Rw' U2 Rw' (same notation as Rob)

 

[Robert-Y]

Or Rw U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 Rww U2 Lw' U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 x' Rw' U2 Rw'...

I wonder how many of these are "identical" in this way

 

[Chree]

I always did:

Rw' U2 3Rw U2 Lw' U2 (Rw2 x') U2 Rw U2 Rw' U2 F2 Rw2 F2

...for that case. I think someone once called it the "beginner's parity alg". Perhaps because it was on Frank Morris' site and no one uses it anymore. You'd trade all the Wide moves for slice moves and it's the pure flip still.

 

[sk8erman41]

These are fantastic! thanks guys, I will play around with what works best, but exactly what I was looking for.